Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Interpretum, your answer:
I wrote a blog post giving my reasons for dating Revelation around 67AD or early 68AD (this is so I don't have to go over the same points):
http://propheticword.blog.com/revelation...n-written/
I read your blog. It was interesting. You wrote the facts and arguments very educatively! Now I see it possible that Revelation did fullfill first time on the jewish system of things on the first centry. Very similar to what Jesus had foretold befor his death.

However, that isn't the end of the story for Christians. Clearly, as Revelation shows (chapter 14), there was to be a second harvest, followed eventually by Armageddon.Thanks for your answer to your oppinion to in what time we live in now. Well, our oppinions do not differ so much. But I would suggest you to examine today's developements concerning UN, USA, New World Order, Globalgovernance. And interesting that the western masonic globalist regard themselves to be the revived Rome according to many youtube documentary videos. So it seems very likely that many Revelation prophecies are going to have a second fullfillment.

Best regards Jan

Hi
Please dont mind me, I always end up editing my posts, but just thought I would tell you I added more thoughts to Post 65 .

Take notice I said thoughts. Meaning I am only speaking for myself . according to what I see in scripture.

love susanna:grouphug:

Hi Eddie

There is an almost universal tradition that John was eventually released from Patmos. He then tended to the congregations, after his release.

Absolutely... this fulfilling Mathew 24 in the first century. The good news had been accomplished prior to 70AD. In fact, I would suspect the event at Pentecost 33AD (where all the nations heard the good news in their own tongues) laid a pretty solid foundation for this!

However, after the disruption in the Roman empire of 66-73AD where Rome was in civil war (69AD), Judea was in rebellion (66-70AD) and Gaul in the north (67?, not sure of exact dating), any missionary work would have been difficult.

Once order was restored again in the empire, particularly from 73AD onwards, the preaching work could commence... although technically speaking, John was told to PROPHECY again about peoples, kings and many nations.

Well, I make a strong case for Revelation being written 67AD or 68AD. This would not be many decades after the fact.
http://propheticword.blog.com/revelation...n-written/

I doubt it. If I can figure it out by comparing Revelation with the words of Jesus, I'm sure 1st century Christians could do it much better than us.

Hi Jan

Great :thumbup:

Possibly. One of the things about the Roman wild beast is its ability to recycle itself. That's why we have 7 kings, and then the beast itself becomes an 8th king. It's a CYCLE, like the 7 days of the week, followed by an 8th day which is also the 1st day of the next week.

The Roman empire really got started with "seven kings", the line of Caesars... but after their line (the Julio-Claudian line) terminated, Rome was revived again under Vespasian and a new bloodline (the Flavian line).

However, all through history this Roman empire has morphed and changed, or people have revived (or attempted to revive) it. We have the "Holy" Roman Empire, which was the Pope's attempt to recreate the Roman empire with him on top (with some success, I might add).

We have Hitler and his Third Reich... third, because it was attempting to be the third version of the Roman empire, although his proud claim of 1,000 years lasted a mere 12.

It is quite possible that the European Union is being moulded into their fourth attempt. This is possibly in fulfillment of the prophecies of Revelation 17:

"And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind and give over their power and authority to the beast;"

However, I'm not so sure... because the "ten kings" are offspring of the Roman empire, who gained their own kingdoms after the fall of Rome. I suppose we could argue, they have never really been of "one mind" yet (two World Wars gives evidence of that!)... at least up until today, when they have joined together in a Union.

I am familiar with a lot of the conspiracy stuff. I'm not entirely convinced... a lot of the conspiracy guys riff off Revelation, but they don't recognize the way Revelation works, so EVERYTHING bad in this world is identified with Revelation.

It seems to me that, when He fulfills prophecy, He does so logically and progressively. Take the ancient fall of Babylon. He foretold its fall, and eventual desolation. In 539BC, Babylon fell as predicted. However, it remained a fairly important city for several hundred years, until it eventually fell into desolation.

God's prophecies upon ancient Babylon were fulfilled, but not quite in the way some might have expected. It was a SLOW process.

The same, I believe, is true of Revelation, its wild beasts, and Babylon the Great. The rise and later decline of these things take time. Just with ancient Babylon, she can suffer a "fall", but not a complete desolation.

Of course, Revelation does predict a sudden and calamitous end for the wild beast and Babylon the Great... but many Christians expect these entities to APPEAR in the future, missing all of the important historical context for them, laid out in Revelation!

Quote from coccus Post # 60
Hi Susannah,

For the most part I can agree, but with regard to the unpopularity of the message of the 2 witnesses and the popular appeal of the false prophet's teaching my opinion is closer to Abe's

Please tell me how you understand these verses ...Look out that nobody misleads you...for false anointed ones (christs) and false prophets will arise and will give great wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even (or also) the chosen ones. Look I have forewarned... (Matt
24:4,24,25). ,

This warning is directed primarily at the chosen ones as is the whole of chapter 24 & 25. If even the discernment of the chosen ones is under threat then the deception will indeed be great. The two witnesses’ message (which is not the GNews of the K) is a new message exposing and directly opposing the much more popular messages of the false prophet who has misled all (one Greek text reads misled the ones of mine [God’s people]) with great signs from heaven (Rev 13:14). End of Quote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dear coccus

2 Thess 2:1-12 does deal with our present time/ Paul warned to watch for this deception..

False Christ's( in my eyes) are those who claim the title of being anointed. ( Christ)
such as the WT governing body through the establishment of the JW's organization.

In cleansing the Temple of God Jesus pointed this out in Rev 2:9 and Rev 3:9 that there would be some that would claim to be a spiritual Jew ( anointed ) that were not, but instead really belong to Satan's.( weeds. )

Jesus is NOT speaking about Christendom, but to those who claim to be " the real sons" of God.. We that know the true God and his son certainly couldn't be Christ true followers if we could be deceived by a false Christ claim from Christendom. . Why would we even listen to one that claimed to be Christ if they were still wrapped up in pagan doctrines ? (This is where the deception came in and is still at work )

No ! these false Christ would be weeds found in among the wheat.of Jehovah's True sons which have not yet been sealed. . . Many are called but few are chosen.

How many professed anointed that were /are connected to the JWs org.
along with the Bible Students ;that still hold onto the lie of the 1914 WT doctrine
How many stayed or died believing the Lie of 1914 ? How many are still there ? Thousands !.
I would certainly call that " a Great deception"
We have two warnings from Paul in this regard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1 Thessalonians 5:20 (Amplified Bible)
Do not spurn the gifts and utterances of the prophets [do not depreciate prophetic revelations nor despise inspired instruction or exhortation or warning]. which leads us to


2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (Amplified Bible) " once again"
1BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,
2Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.

3Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [a]apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great ]falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

>>>>>>>>

The ones that are fallen away are those who have put their trust in in these false Christs



In fact I would not be surprised that the" House of God" is already going thru a judgement or inspection period ,
The apostacy has already come , been uncovered to those who have kept their lamps filled with oil and is still here.
So yes of course I believe that Matt 24 th chapter already had a minor fulfillment, with the Jewish system in 70 AD , and now in our time is going thru a major fulfillment .

AS I said before I believe the message of the Two witnesses will be of the Kingdom birth of the Messianic Kingdom . Satan being ousted from the heavens after trying to stop the birth of the Kingdom, is all brought out in Revelation the 12 th chapter.. This is when Satan gets very angry and wages war with the remaining of the woman's seed

Rev 12:10-12 . reads ,
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Revelation 12:17
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and he went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Revelation 13:7 (New Living Translation)
7 And the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I felt I answered all the questions you asked

I also believe the 13 th chapter of Revelation deals with the Dragons final rule for the earth
( 3.5 years )
This rule of the Dragon will carry out many prophecy's for Gods purpose.
During this earthly short reign, we will all individually have to make a choice ,we will be accountable for our self
. As Luke brought out every one will carry his own load.
.
So it doesn't really matter what I believe, that isn't going to get any one life.
I just enjoy examining the scriptures but that does not mean I am right, We as individuals must make sure of all things. Let God be found true and every man a liar.:read:

I had already expressed what I thought the abomination was , but I am sure every one has their own opinion on that, so I wont repeat it. Only because it is only my personal opinion.
in using discernment., which I repeat does not mean I'm right.

Hope this makes sense ..

love susanna :grouphug:

I heard this commentary that is rather intriguing:

Enoch & Elijah were taken to heaven alive and did not die. Since 'all men have inherited sin and death through sin' these two men must fulfill their destiny and die one day.

Then he pointed out that they are the two prophets in Revelation that prophesy in the day of the Anti-Christ. Saying that they will return from heaven, oppose the Anti-Christ as priests of the church and prophets and fulfill their destiny of finally having to die while then experiencing resurrection.

>>>>>>>>>>>
Thank you for sharing Yannis

Yes I too heard that story long ago ,way back when !

Now when reasoning on Gods word , if this were true it would make Gods word a lie. At the same time His inspired word says "Its impossible for God to Lie

>>>>>>>

The speaker said

Enoch & Elijah were taken to heaven alive and did not die. Since 'all men have inherited sin and death through sin' these two men must fulfill their destiny and die one day.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I say

Do the scriptures say, God took them to heaven ?,

Or do the scriptures say, " God took him," isn't that what people say when some one dies ? Even the clergy at a funeral will say at death that he's now in heaven with God. So if that were true then the graves would be empty.

Oh I forgot its the soul that went to heaven ( pagan belief ) and not the body but ypu will be assured your loved one was in heaven ,with God.
BY the clergy.

Enoch was living at a very violent ,wicked time period . Preaching of course about the future destruction. ,To protect him from a possible violent death from his opponents God took him.( he died )

you know just like some one dies in their sleep.

Jesus while on earth said no one ascended into heaven ,except for the son who had descended .. .

Now was Jesus telling the truth , or had Enoch gone unnoticed in the heavens ?

.

Jesus had to be the first fruits of this special resurrection/

Not only that but these " two Prophets " had not been followers of Christ and their beliefs were to be brought back to earth. The way into heaven was not available until Christ himself made the way/

It was Christ himself that said when John the Baptist died, that as great as John the Baptist was one of these lesser ones his brothers was greater then he.( John ).


Now for Elijah lets look at his background. He too was a prophet of God had the very same hope as Enoch ,That was to live on earth. Keeping in mind Christ was the first fruits.

>>>>>>The speaker says

Then he pointed out that they are the two prophets in Revelation that prophesy in the day of the Anti-Christ. Saying that they will return from heaven, oppose the Anti-Christ as priests of the church and prophets and fulfill their destiny of finally having to die while then experiencing resurrection.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I say

Were they named in Revelation, I think not . So what proof does he have,that the two witnesses would be the two prophets ? They didn't even Know Christ, there fore they weren't even Christians.When they are awaken they then will be taught about the promised seed and his Kingdom.

When you read about Elijah, we see a prophet for his time. Way before Moses . Yet when Moses was taken he just stayed on the mountain, no one ever found his body yet God took him,

Even told him he was not going to go in the promise land.

Yet he is still with God because every one in Gods memory is alive,also God is a God of the living not of the dead.

Elijah was very old and tired. he was the only prophet in Israel , .it was time for a break and it was time for him to start taking it easy, so God had another prophet replace him.

This prophet was Elisha,

Elijah just was taken where his work would be lighter., and possibly die as Elisha was going to replace him.

If you read 2 Kings the 2nd chapter you can see the way Jehovah transported Elijah to various assignments was to catch him in a chariot and whirlwind and transport him that way. , In fact Elijah allowed Elisha to travel with him as long as time permitted.

2 Kings 2:1
WHEN THE Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were going from Gilgal.
2 Kings 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Kings 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Kings 2:2
And Elijah said to Elisha, Tarry here, I pray you, for the Lord has sent me to Bethel. But Elisha replied, As the Lord lives and as your soul lives, I will not leave you. So they went down to Bethel.
2 Kings 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Kings 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Kings 2:4
Elijah said to him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray you, for the Lord has sent me to Jericho. But he said, As the Lord lives and as your soul lives, I will not leave you. So they came to Jericho.
2 Kings 2:3-5 (in Context) 2 Kings 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Kings 2:9
And when they had gone over, Elijah said to Elisha, Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you. And Elisha said, I pray you, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.
2 Kings 2:8-10 (in Context) 2 Kings 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Kings 2:14
And he took the mantle that fell from Elijah and struck the waters and said, Where is the Lord, the God of Elijah? And when he had struck the waters, they parted this way and that, and Elisha went over.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2 Kings brings out that Elisha calls Elijah his Lord , and as long as he lived he would stay with him.

So scripture proves both prophets died , or God indeed did take them.

love susanna:grouphug:

I did not read the entire thread...but here is my contribution:

Peter and Paul were the two witnesses.

The 1260 days parallels to the time that the woman (the Christian congregation) is fed in the wilderness.

Fire from their mouths consuming their enemies - this is a spiritual view. The reaction to their preaching meant condemnation (lake of fire) for many. This concept also applies to Gog and Magog later, only the fire comes from heaven.

This is the only account in the bible which hints at their horrifying deaths at the hands of Nero. Other accounts (unfortunately only from the catholic church) say they were covered in pitch, lit on fire, beheaded, hung upside down on a torture stake/cross, and their bodies left to rot.

Many on this thread who see a fulfullment of Revelation in the time of the early Chistians are on the right track. Religion has created the 'future fulfillment' lens for mankind, which gets us all thinking we need to behave now to avoid imminent destruction. Its a hard habit to kick. But Revelation 21-22 pictures the world as it stands today.

Hi COMankind

Re: "But Revelation 21-22 pictures the world as it stands today."

When, in your opinion, has the resurrection mentioned in Revelation taken place?

(Revelation 20:5..."This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.")

?gogh?

:coffeeread:

I think it happened progressively from the point that Jesus ascended to 455ad, but I'm not exactly sure when it started.

I do know that when Jesus was raised, many other 'spirits' came from the tombs at that time.

Ive been reading up on that one coincidentally.

What do you think?


Hi COMankind

Re: "But Revelation 21-22 pictures the world as it stands today."

When, in your opinion, has the resurrection mentioned in Revelation taken place?

(Revelation 20:5..."This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.")

?gogh?

:coffeeread:
[/quote]

Re: "What do you think?"

I do not know of any historical evidence of a time of rule on this planet without Satan's influence; regarding "...and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years."

I do not see evidence of this scriptures fullfillment:

"But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” (Revelation 11:18...)

I do not share preterist view.

Christian love,

gogh

Gogh,

Understood. I don't tend to label it preterist per se, I just read for what it is and try not to add more to it. But I understand and respect the different viewpoints..I use to be a die-hard future-fulfillment person myself.

Satan today - that was the hardest thing for me to grasp too. But as I look around, I genuinely see a world trying to improve itself. I also see people who do evil (like is described on the new earth in Revelation 21 and 22) Plus, if angels have free will, they can still disobey God...it's just that Satan and his demons were destroyed as a result of a trial. Now the judgment is on the books, no angel or man can make that case again.

Bring to ruin those ruining - well, there is admittedly a lot of interpretation here. This could mean that nobody would be on earth that would do any damage to it. Or, it could mean that people who mistreat Gods creation (man and earth) will not inherit everlasting life.

"Earth" is often seen as a global application,btw. But the Greek word "ga" in that verse is used all over the place in the NT: Mt 14:34 (translated land) Mt 15:35 (translated ground)

Regards
COMankind

Thanks for your response COMankind

I appreciate your style of presenting your views.

Re: "But as I look around, I genuinely see a world trying to improve itself."

This, imo, could be part of deception...as any improvements will not be/are not attributed to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Take care,

gogh