Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I seem to have taken this statement made by Jesus quite literally and out of context, as if YHVH had no voice of His own - John 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
Now for the context:
John 5
10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, "It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet."
11 But he answered them, "He who made me well was the one who said to me, 'Pick up your pallet and walk.'"
12 They asked him, "Who is the man who said to you, 'Pick up your pallet and walk'?"
13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."
15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
[...]36 "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

38 "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
41 "I do not receive glory from men;
42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

This was not a general statement Jesus made, it was pointedly directed towards his accusers, the Jewish Pharisees and Saducees who were persecuting him. For them to have heard God's voice was for them to have known and believed the writings of Moses about the Messiah - Moses, whom they claimed as their forefather -

15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
16 "This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.'
17 "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well.
18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and (T)he shall speak to them all that I command him.
19 'It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. Deut. 18

They did not have God's word in their hearts, nor love for God and the one He sent. Proof of their true heart condition was evident - they tortured and murdered God's Son!

Of course God's voice had been heard - by His chosen leaders, Kings and prophets of the past -

Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing toward the east;
and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. Ezekiel 43:1,2

- and Jesus' disciples heard His voice booming from the heavens as He voiced His approval of His Son -

and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, " You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." Luke 3:22 (corr. vss at Mt. 3:17 & Mk. 1:11)

Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!" Luke 9:35 (corr. vss at Mt. 17:5 & Mk. 9:7)

Just sumthin' I was thinkin' about whilst canning my green beans... :whistle:
:peace:

Thanks very much Willa.

(may we anticipate carrots and beets next?)

yummy

:eat:

Lol - tomatoes and juice if they ever get ripe - great big and green as grass right now. I can only blame our weather - so unusually cool - the coolest July on record since they started keeping records late 1800's. We didn't use the air-conditioner even one day in July - so strange! :scratchhead: The only thing not growing too well are the honeydew melons - don't know if they'll make anything or not. :(
I've got a boatload of zucchini - fixing it every way possible until we get sick of it, then I'll freeze a bunch and try to give the rest away - but everyone has loads of zucchini, so it'll make great compost, hehe. My potatoes are ready to dig... I used to grow carrots to can - but it's such a chore cleaning the dirt out of all those little crevices - I found it's much easier to buy a bag already cleaned and slice and can those, ha! Oh yes, beets too - some for pickling and some plain for harvard beets - so good when it's cold outside! I'm going to try canning spinach this year - I really love it but not so much frozen. Maybe I'll try canning buttercup squash instead of freezing - I don't even know if I like it yet though, lol - first time for that. I so love gardening, such enjoyable 'work' - do you garden, gogh?
I won't be able to get my fingernails really clean again until late September, lol, but there's no better pleasure than diggin' in the dirt of God's earth and watching those miracles - dead-looking seeds sprout and life 'happens'! :farmer: I grew up on a crop farm - soy beans, corn, wheat. Dad said you couldn't be a farmer and not believe in God - he was so right! :giverose:

I was thinking the other day about the 'bee colony collapse syndrome' and the dire predictions - but I'm seeing bees everywhere and not only mason bees, but honey bees. I wouldn't have anything at all in the garden without them doing their pollinating... wonder if the 'experts' were wrong about that? Or maybe, just maybe, the bees know what they're doing and why they're doing it? :bee:

Love to you, dear brother:love:
Willa :peace

ya, I try and have fun gardening....got it figured out....plant enough/more than enough for all the little critters the feast you have set before them...they get full...and whats left is ours...ha, ha...grin.

our raised bed effort this year has/is really paying off...easier to manage as well. we've experienced heat never recorded in this area before (for a few days)...(west coat/canada).

regarding bees.....it seems I read somewhere other flying insects pollinate as well...so no worries...grin.

similar to learning to and keeping in mind the importance of context of scripture.....getting ones hands dirty results in greater appreciation and glory to our Father and His dear Son.

Peace and Christian love to you and yours,

gogh

Hello Willa,

" For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." John 5:18

It is interesting to see that the Jews accused Jesus (Yeshua) of claiming to be God just because he said that God is his Father.

Here is what the Jews said to Jesus themselves at a later time:

Jesus told the Jews:
"You are doing the deeds of your father. They said to him; "We were not born of fornication, we have one Father, even God." John 8:41

They themselves claimed that God was their father, so they must be claiming equality with God themselves. Jesus was right, the Scribes and Pharisees were "blind guides".

Though they claimed that they had only ONE father, God, they also claimed that Abraham was their father as we can see by the Scripture below:

"They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father."..........' See John 8:39

Obviously their eyes, ears, and minds were closed.

Anchor

Hi Willa, It is interesting that they claimed to know God and represent Him. But Christ says " They have never seem Him at any time or heard Him either. Spiritually blind and deaf just as the Scriptures say.

Jer 5:21
‘ Hear this now, O foolish people, Without understanding, Who have eyes and see not, And who have ears and hear not:

Is 43:8
Bring out the blind people who have eyes, And the deaf who have ears.


lets look at this passage and see if we can see Jesus in it?


7 Everyone who is called by My name, ( Christians )
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him.”(John 1:3,Col 1:16-17)

8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
And the deaf who have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
And let the people be assembled.
Who among them can declare this,
And show us former things?
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
10 “ You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,

“ And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed, ( not even little g )
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior. ( Hey what about Jesus? )
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the LORD, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?” ( see John 10:27-29 )
14 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, (luke 2:5-38 )
The Holy One of Israel: ( mark 1:24 )

“ For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the LORD, your Holy One,Lk 1:35,4:34,act2:27,3:14,13:35, 1 john 2:20,21
The Creator of Israel, your King.” jn1:49,12:13,mrk15:32,mt27
16 Thus says the LORD, who makes a way in the sea
And a path through the mighty waters, mt14;25-29,mk6:48,49


It's also intersting that Jesus could say YHWH said this BUT I SAY!!!

Matt 5

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.


27 [b]“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed
adultery with her in his heart.

What is He doing how can a man or an Angel re-write some of the Commandments given by God?

Or could He be ??? Expounding on the heart of the matter?

31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


2 Corinth 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

John 3:34
For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak
to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Ex 4:11
So the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?

John 9
1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

10 Therefore they said to him, “How were your eyes opened?” 11 He answered and said, “A Man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to the pool of Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed, and I received sight.”

PS 146:8
The LORD opens the eyes of the blind;The LORD raises those who are bowed down; The LORD loves the righteous.

30 The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes!

32 Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. 33 If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.”


HIS FORM AND HIS VOICE!!!

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”

VOICE AND FORN SEEN AND HEARD!!!

38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.” 40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.


Is 29:8
In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, And the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.

Is 35:5
Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, And the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.






Do you see?

Blessings Wayne:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Do you see?

Blessings Wayne:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:
[/quote]

Yes Bethel Boy Amen!

I see, Wayne, that you have a knack for turning every thread into an opportunity to promote your trinity belief. :thinking:

Jesus was not just a man or an angel - he is God's Son, the One God chose as His Anointed One, Messiah - the following verses show why he used the exact words he spoke, thus being rightly given the title of "The Word of God":

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

"For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. John 3:34

The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." John 4:25


He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ, Anointed). John 1:41


" If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. John 7:17(Jesus could've taught his own take on righteousness, but he did not - he taught all that his Father, YHVH God, had instructed him)

"He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. John 7:18

John 8:25 So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?
26 "I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.
28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
29 "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."

"I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." John 8:38

" For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. John 12:49

"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." John 12:50

:peace:

This would be more a Deity of Christ promotion than Trinity promotion.

Jesus was not just a man or an angel - he is God's Son, the One God chose as His Anointed One, Messiah - the following verses show why he used the exact words he spoke, thus being rightly given the title of "The Word of God":


He was a man and Thus " The Son of Man " ( although from Daniel 7 there is more of Deity seen than Man. Men don't arrive on the clouds of Heaven )

These were the words that made the Sanhedrin want to kill Him These guys knew the OT inside out! He is saying He is God, what futher proof do we need. They REALLY remembered the Exodus.


Matt 26
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power,( Sharing God's Throne ) and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!

( In the words of Josh McDowell He is either Liar/Lord/or Lunatic )

Ex 13
21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night. 22 He did not take away the pillar of cloud by day or the pillar of fire by night from before the people.

It was not simply a cloud, but rather it was the Lord going “ahead of them in a pillar of cloud.” When the cloud of God was moving, it meant that God was moving.


Ex 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them. 20 So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night.

Ex 33:9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. 10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door. 11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.



and of course He is " The Son of God " Fully Man and Fully God.

( It pleased the Father that in Him all the Fullness should dwell Col 1:9

( Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godship bodily;
see KIT page 899 strongs #2320 = theotes = the state of being God )

This unique one of a kind God/Man ( Dual nature, except without the sin nature)

The Bible teaches that all mankind will be Judged by God but it also teaches that the Father Judges no one only the Son.


So that old WT saying that Jehovah will know your heart etc doesn't matter at all! It is Jesus who will Judge all mankind.

2 Corinth 5:19

that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


Peace

Wayne your favourite pain:D

Dear BethelBoy:hibye:,

I have a problem with your repetition that God is Jesus and the cloud that walked before the Israelites and moved behind, blah, blah, blah...

The scriptures are not defining the ACTUAL cloud as being God. I disagree with you on this theological basis. Since its is a repetitious point that you are trying to bring out that this is God/Jesus the one and same. I am hoping some smarties with be able to help me disassemble your concept.

My first argument is that the "cloud" can be external matter combined to create the awesome miracle. Two, God can be with the Isrealites by having any angel of His, being with the group. Angels carried out holy missions and anytime God was with his people, it could be angelic help.

I believe that you are making a chasm leap by saying that God and Jesus are the same based on the "cloud".

My second argument with you on this thread is that you think that the WT DOESN"T give glory and worship to Jesus. They do, your not looking at what they DO for the glory and blessings and kingship towards Jesus. JW's believe in ending every prayer through Jesus. They read the gospels and Greatest Man book to bring their hearts closer to an indentity that changed the world @2000 years ago. They spread the gospel as if its the ONLY important thing in life to do! They believe that all judging is given to the son. In fact, they believe that everything will be in fine order when Jesus hands back the kingdom to Jehovah. They look forward to Jesus being their Shepard (too bad they are WAITING for the kingship-that's where their error is, they should be living the kingdom now).

Yes, JW's Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah everything to death. But, to say that they do not LOVE and desire to give absolute reverence and glory to Jesus and his kingdom rule is FALSE. Its evil and sinister to look at the Jehovah Witness faith with such false condemnation. I can understand JW's being dismissed as a religious faith of choice, but you seem to constantly have an agenda. The worst part is most of your accusation are not true (edited to add or twisted) about the religious faith.

I'm really tired of your WT bashing on false pretenses. I could understand if you came from the cult, but I truly believe that you are a JW hater. This is the second time I have stated this to you in the last couple of days. You wonder if we "see", I wonder if you "hear".

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

Dear Sis Willa:love:,

I appreciate your thread. It is amazing how we can "pluck" scriptures and they take on a new meaning.

Your right the sentence being left alone, makes it seems like no one had seen or heard God, before. We know that the bible shows accounts of God appearing or speaking to mankind on several occasions.

One of my favorites that I use to remind myself to keep on track is this one:

1 Kings 11:9 (Darby Translation)

9And Jehovah was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned away from Jehovah the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,

With Sis Love, Debbie

OK I have had about enough of your name calling I have NEVER called you a single name and will not stoop so low as to do that now.

First off I am not a JW Hater and I REALLY resent that remark I let it slide last time but this time I will let you know how I feel about all your name calling.

This morning I spent 15-20 minutes having a great laugh with 2 JW friends of mine!!

After that i spent another 15-20 minutes having a really great talk with a couple of Morman guys. We had a GREAT conversation!!

I also spent a half an hour talking to my sister having a great time as well laughing away.


None of them called me any names ONLY YOU.

I have a righteous anger toward false prophets and false religions and those who will lead people into a Christless Eternity.

So the WTBTS and those who have run it through the years I am against and speak my mind about their deception . As well as those in the RCC who love their Religion and depise people. As well as the guys in the high towers out in Utah who lead people down the road of another False Prophet. as well as the Benny Hinn's of this world who rake in the dough from the sickly. As well as Oprah who leads people astray on the teaching of Eckhart Tolle. As well as Jim Jones and I hope you remember Him. The WTBTS is no different than all those who died refusing blood or even vaccinations through the years and those whose families dumped them. All those who perhaps commited suicide unable to deal with Abuse or rejection out numbers Jonestown by far.

So yes righteous anger against these yes I have it.


If Jesus is God as I and millions of others have believed from AD33 forward like Ignatius and Polycarp who were disciples of the Apostle John.

Then I can truely say you don't even know who God is,you don't worship Him as God and in the past you have reduced the Almighty creator down to a mere Angel.



"...God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life." ( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)

"Continue inseparable from Jesus Christ our God."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)

In numerous other places in his letter to Polycarp he states "Jesus is God", "God incarnate."

Polycarp (70-160). Bishop of Smyrna.A disciple of John the Apostle
"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Himself, the God Jesus Christ, build you up in the faith..."( The Epistle of Polycarp to the Church at Philippi, 12

Do you believe God dwelt in the Tabernacle?

The midrash to Psalm 91 says:
How could the Tabernacle with walls and curtains contain the presence of Almighty? The Master of the universe Himself explains,"the entire world cannot contain my Glory.Yet when I wish I can concentrate my entire essence into one spot. Indeed I am Most High yet I sit in a limited constricted refuge - in the shadow of the Tabernacle.


Ex 13
21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night.

I don't know but the way I read it it says The LORD went before them in a pillar of cloud


Perhaps a reminder of the former JW's who now believed Jesus is God

http://www.witnessesforjesus.org/wnfjvideo.php


http://www.mmoutreach.org/audio_jw.htm

:hibye:

Dear BB,

I don't think I'm calling you a name, I think I'm making an accusation. And, I will live with the after burn of any wrongly made accusations.

As it stands, you have made a few statements about what JW's think that I have found to be false and misleading.

Either, you are ignorant of what its really like, as a JW, to LOVE Jesus and look forward to his guidance OR you are plainly out to condemn them, whether true or not.

The miracle of the cloud DOES NOT prove that Jesus and the Father are the same.

I found nothing in Psalms 91 to back up your statement, perhaps you quoted the wrong chapter. I will read it when you can post it.

ALSO, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT JW'S THINK JESUS IS A MERE ANGEL? I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR PRESUMPTUOUSNESS. I DIDN'T THINK OF JESUS AS A MERE ANGEL AND I DON'T THINK OTHERS DO, EITHER. ITS A FALSE THINKING AND TEACHING ON YOUR PART!!!!

This is why we are having a problem. Your presuming the minds of individuals inside a corporate trap. Hate the trap all you want, but don't presume my ex-JW mind or anyone else when it comes to YOU telling me/us what we think!

With Sisterly Disagreement, Debbie

Name calling is for children, I'm trying to work things out.

Now now chilluns....:love: Debbie, I think you might be confused because it's not what you believe - nor do I believe that Jesus was a mere angel - but it is what the Watchtower teaches - that he was the archangel Michael in his pre-human existence in heaven, and when he ascended to heaven after his resurrection, he again became his previous angel Michael self. They use the scrip. that says he comes with "the voice of an archangel" upon his return as one proof. They also teach that God created him, which I think is an over-simplification of the matter - I think veritas re on another thread said it was perhaps more like a "cloning" - I've referred to it as a "fission", as God is an untappable source of pure energy - but we don't know because we weren't there! Lol - so it's no use to try to define such things, is it? The WT does not advocate worship of Jesus - they used to under Russell's direction, but somewhere along the way(Rutherford:( ) that changed - probably to draw a distinct line between themselves and other Christian religions. The wtbts is messed-up, dear sis - they don't have everything wrong, but plenty. That isn't to say there are not sincere worshippers therein, because there definitely are - but I think many of those have their own beliefs that don't necessarily line-up with the WT program, so they tend to keep their differences to themselves...

Wayne - I understand your feeling towards the WT, especially because of your sister - but it seems your relationship has had a positive turn? That's great! What Debbie is saying, if I may put it another way - is like if I complain about my husband and say all kinds of unkind things, that's one thing... but you can't say unkind things about him because it would make me feel defensive, even if you only repeat my own words - do you understand? And also - the things you harp on are things we 'exes' have already corrected in our thinking - so it's beating a dead horse and we get tired of hearing it over and over. The Jesus is God theme is the #1 thing that will turn a JW's hearing off and nothing else you say will make a difference because they won't be listening. You may see it as such, but it's not an open and shut case at all.
As 'exes' we don't much care what anyone else has proposed about the subject - there's been plenty of ammunition on both sides of that war for over 2,000 years - with each side calling the other "heretic". I know why I believe as I do, but I'm open to discussion and willing to be proven wrong. That's why I like conversing with you and I seriously consider all you say. But I'm still convinced by the plethora of evidence from the 'other side' of the argument on the subject of 'is Jesus God?'. Maybe to you that means I'm stubbornly refusing to listen, but that's not the case at all - I mean, who doesn't want to know the truth and nothing but the truth? No one wants to believe falsely! What has Debbie's back up is the accusation you've said so many times - that Jw's or x-Jw's don't know the real Jesus - and that, my friend, is a false accusation, for we do know and love the Jesus of the Bible who called His Father his God - the Son of God and true Messiah is very real to us! He had pure compassion and love for the sheep who were "skinned and thrown about", so perhaps you can find that same Christ-like compassion for ones who've definitely been skinned by the wtbts? I love you sincerely Wayne - your love for God and Christ are evident in your words - do you have the same love for me and others whose words reveal the same? Please don't let doctrines stand in the way. :friends:

... and now back to the thread....
:peace:

BethelBoy Wrote:

This would be more a Deity of Christ promotion than Trinity promotion.

It links to trinity when you try to explain how Jesus could be God, yet not his own Father, right?

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He was a man and Thus " The Son of Man " ( although from Daniel 7 there is more of Deity seen than Man. Men don't arrive on the clouds of Heaven )

He was 'Son of Man' because he was the promised Prophet, not because of human gender.
Jesus said it:
And they took offense at Him But Jesus said to them, " A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household." Matthew 13:57
"Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem. Luke 13:33

the people said it:
Therefore when the people saw the sign which He had performed, they said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world." John 6:14
Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited His people!" Luke 7:16
And the crowds were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee." Matthew 21:11

his disciples said it(and Moses prophesied it):
Acts 3:22,23
"Moses said, ' THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'

even the Jewish Sanhedrin knew it, though they didn't want to really believe it:
Matthew 21:46
When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.

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They didn't "remember" the exodus - they weren't there. They only knew what they'd read, but they didn't fully understand because they didn't 'see' that Jesus was prophesied there. The Sanhedrin, full of self-glory, thought they knew everything about the Law, but what they cared about was their own authority in weighing the common people down with it's regulations - they did not know the true meaning of God's statutes. They pounced on Jesus' statement and twisted it into the ultimate accusation against him. Jesus called them "sons of the devil" - how can you put stock in anything they said? They called Jesus a liar, a sinner, a Samaritan and demon-possessed - they were truly blind and deaf guides! Moreover, they were liars and Christ-killers, not to be trusted. I don't know why you insist on using their words as any kind of proof for anything, Wayne - Jesus said they had NO truth in them as progeny of the father of all liars!
So Jesus told them 'how it is':
John 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him .Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
48 The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"

I love this account of the man Jesus cured of blindness - so candid and just a bit sarcastic:
John 9:24 So a second time they called the man who had been blind, and said to him, "Give glory to God; we know that this man(Jesus) is a sinner."
25 He then answered, "Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see."
26 So they said to him, "What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?"
27 He answered them, "I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?"
28 They reviled him and said, "You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
29 "We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from."
30 The man answered and said to them, "Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.
31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
32"Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.
33 "If this man were not from God, He could do nothing."
34 They answered him, "You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?" So they put him out.

The Jews feared Jesus and didn't want the true Messiah to upset their little world where they were kings. They accused him of blasphemy for their own purposes, as the Bible states -
John 11: 45 Therefore many of the Jews who came to Mary, and saw what He had done, believed in Him.
46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.
Conspiracy to Kill Jesus
47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, "What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
48 "If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation."
49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all,
50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish."
51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,
52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him.

The Sanhedrin didn't even know from where the Messiah was to come!
John 7 - Division of People over Jesus
40 Some of the people therefore, when they heard these words, were saying, "This certainly is the Prophet."
41 Others were saying, "This is the Christ." Still others were saying, "Surely the Christ is not going to come from Galilee, is He?
42 "Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?"
43 So a division occurred in the crowd because of Him.
44 Some of them wanted to seize Him, but no one laid hands on Him.
45 The officers then came to the chief priests and Pharisees, and they said to them, "Why did you not bring Him?"
46 The officers answered, "Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks."
47 The Pharisees then answered them, "You have not also been led astray, have you?
48 "No one of the rulers or Pharisees has believed in Him, has he?
49 "But this crowd which does not know the Law is accursed."
50 Nicodemus (he who came to Him before, being one of them) said to them,
51 "Our Law does not judge a man unless it first hears from him and knows what he is doing, does it?"
52 They answered him, "You are not also from Galilee, are you? Search, and see that no prophet arises out of Galilee."

Strong's is not a Bible translator, it's a dictionary/concordance. Other definitions are 'Godly', 'divine' and God-like'. Yes, God dwelled IN Jesus - 'indwelled' - God's spirit completely filled him! He could not have remained unstained by sin otherwise. His followers hope to attain to this same fullness in maturity, to God and Christ's glory - Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. --- Ephesians 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. ---Ephesians 1: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

It's not either/or - judgement is by God through the Christ - everything is through him, as He has willed for the Son to carry out His plan-
John 5:26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

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So that old WT saying that Jehovah will know your heart etc doesn't matter at all! It is Jesus who will Judge all mankind.

No, the WT says that if you're not a Jehovah's Witness, a 'good heart' doesn't matter and you'll be Armaggedon-ized!

Do you see that it says God was IN Christ - not that God WAS Christ? Yes, God was IN him and WITH him. Jesus was FROM God, OF God and sent BY Him.

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Wayne your favourite pain:D

;)You are my favorite pain, lol!
:peace: