Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Apostasy, Heresy and Independent Thinking

We have several threads in the history of this DB discussing apostasy but none that make the above distinction. While the WT continues to clobber us to avoid independent thinking, little is ever said concerning the necessity of thinking independently. As anyone of us knows who ran the gauntlet to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses, it was independant thinking that brought us there. Not until later did we discover the real truth that confining us to DEPENDANT thinking was a leash and a gag order that made us slaves to someone else's thinking.

So after observing some of our wanderings, I thought this might be of interest.

1. Is apostasy real or is the word just a red herring meant to put a gag order upon those who might question the authenticity of an inexplicably confounding doctrine?

2. Why is the word heresy so rarely used by the WT unless applying to others?

3. Is independent thinking more of a danger to us, or does the real danger lie with those who need to control thought and whose real motive is to deflect truth and ultimately deceive?

sw

s-wick, is "independant thinking" a misnomer? How can a person really think, if its not independently? Otherwise, its not thinking at all. It's more like memorizing so that one can regurgitate when needed.
Thinking for one self is a gift from God, least we be like the beasts.
Not that we would want to be so cock sure of our selves that we would not consider the ideas of others.

Because of our need to belong, and our other insecurities, the typical JW allows himself to believe that the GB is spirit directed by God, and therefore gives up his right and duty to reason on the scriptures himself. He becomes mentally lazy, unable to reason. Group think takes over his mind. Its a hard cycle to break. :redface:

Yeah, e-mag, exactly, as do all religions that demand leader control. When I joined JW's it was because there was (apparently) no clergy/laity division since all were regarded as brothers.

Did not Jesus say of religious leaders of his day: "They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men?" Rather, did he not say, "whereas all you are brothers?"

Also, he said, "do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." (Matthew 23:6-12)

It never ceases to amaze me how just about every religion thereafter, Catholic, orthodox and protestant, :priest: have violated this basic mandate despite what Peter said at Acts 15:10, "Why are you making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing?"

The whole issue of independent thinking hangs on how much freedom we have gained by joining such a religion. What did Paul say in Galatians 5:1? "For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery." And again at Romans 8:15: "For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again." :scared::beatoverhead:

:coffeeread:sw

sw

Hopefully everyone on this board is an independant thinker. Thus they have something to contribute. If we all had the same thoughts there would be nothing to discuss. I was virtually raised 'in the truth', so it was only when disaster struck that the scales dropped from my eyes. I started reading the Bible on my own, but it was only when I came back to England that I managed to get online and discover I was not the only one on the planet with these thoughts.

I don't think anyone here is an apostate, otherwise we would not spend so much time trying to get to know Jesus.
For the sake of repetition, when a Biblical Greek word gets transliterated it seems to take on a life form of its own. It loses its original meaning and instead becomes a title. Greek should be translated, and translated consistently. Apo = away, stasis = stand. So if any one wants to stand away from something that is their choice. If they have decided to stand away, then they do not need to be kicked out, or disfellowshipped, because they have already gone.
1 John said they were of our sort, yet they were not of our sort otherwise they would not have left.
The only disfellowshipping in the New Testament was a congregational decision, because everyone knew what the man was doing, so each individual decided to shun him for a while.

Heresy, what is that?
Wiki, Heresy is an introduced change to some system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established canon of that belief.
Right so as far as the Pharisees were concerned Jesus was a heretic. Great I'll follow him on that one. Where you go master I will follow.
If I do not agree with the orthodox teachings of the WT I am a heretic. Fantastic I will wear that badge with pride.
When comes to many of the absurd WT teachings

I am a heretic

vicky

Hey Vickster!

I was raised "In The Truth" as well. As you know, when you are born and raised into something, as a child you simply trust what the adults are telling you. They are smarter and older so of course they must know what they are talking about, right?

That was my view too. So I subscribed to the whole JW belief system because their reasoning seemed to make sense and it was all I ever knew. Since their "wisdom" taught me to avoid all other Christian denominations (because they all contained lies....and since the adults knew what they were saying I believed them), I never looked at other beliefs (except through the JW books such as "Mankind's Search For God", etc.).

For those of us who are born and raised into it, it's a tougher than those who were outside, came in, and then left again. For us it's a matter of spiritual disintegration: Everything you have ever believed had crumbled into dust....now what do I do????? There was no previous belief system to re-investigate.

It took me two years, but I found out how many things I was taught as a JW that was simply LIES -- and I didn't know it because I didn't know any other way. For example:
I was always taught that the Bible Students were defunct --
FALSE!
(Hello, RR144!)
I was always taught that no churches used Jehovah's name --
FALSE!
I was always taught that all churches believed that Jesus was Jehovah --
FALSE!
I was always taught that no churches went door-to-door to preach the Word (except for Mormons, who only do it for a mere two years each and then stop) --
FALSE!

I know firsthand that none of the above are true (And I am exposed to all Christian denominations and literally thousands of Christian congregations through my ChristUnite.com website) and yet these JW people are supposed to have "The Truth"????

I don't think so.

Praise Yahweh that He saw fit to open our eyes! HALLELUJAH!:yahoo:

At the summer convention the Bethel speakers stated catagorically that JWs are the only religion preaching the end of this system.

IT is almost sureal is it not?

"At the summer convention the Bethel speakers stated catagorically that JWs are the only religion preaching the end of this system."

IT is like that movie with jim carey where they controled his life and evryone he met was an actor. When you are exposed to nothing else of course what you have is the truth.

it is almost like being a big fish in a small pond to me. your on top till you find out their is an ocean. then you realize you were just nemo the clown fish

Great thread! I was just thinking the same things at work a few nights back. Its really weird, :confused: on one hand the society writes some great articles on how ones should research and question things on their own, then once we get them baptized they're expected to just turn that off. Just do as we say, 1. Question 2. join 3. dont question any more. got it! It is sad, especially since we are trained to go to peoples houses and encourage them to question, not to just follow the crowd. And we dont even realize thats exactly what we are doing , just following.

:hibye:Hey there Mel, I too was raised in the "truth", so I know exactly where your coming from.:dontknow::confused::funnyface:
I've been spiritually disintegrating for several years now.(especially after having to go through the danial book and the revelation book again at the hall). Those interpretations just melt my brain.

Thankfully Jehovah has helped me realize that I can and should question things. Now my full faith and trust is in Him and His Word. If it comes from a man and is not laid out plainly in scripture, I'm gonna be questioning and praying. I might not have all the answers yet but I'm not gonna quit looking just cause someone says I shouldnt.

If we quit reasoning and thinking, giving these over to others to do for us then we become their slaves and victims. As Eph 4:14 says, we then become "tossed about as waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of cunning and contriving error."

S-Wick, thanks for starting this thread. As for your third point , I am thinking that the "real motive" of the majority of those in WT leadership is not to try to "deflect truth and ultimatly decieve". They think they need to control thinking because they are really decieved into thinking this is what Jehovah wants. If any of them are actually trying to decieve on purpose then God help them! I suppose some are (man of lawlessness) but most are well meaning but misdirected. They,too, are "tossed about", but they also have alot more responsibility. May Jehovah be the judge.

It is all quite confusing, but the truth is simple.:clap:
John 14:6 "I am the way and the TRUTH and the life."
John 17:17 "your word is TRUTH."

Keep on asking, keep on seeking,keep on knocking.....this is THINKING!

:friends:Jayme

Hi Jayme! The GB is aware that many JWs are thinking exactly as you do. That's why they had a part on this summers convention titled "Questions about the Last Days"
They Advocated asking questions, but not to look further then their WT literature! And not to "question" that! :shocked:

hi, sw! :hibye: you know very well that i always try to hold my tongue.

but that word "apostasy" is one of my very tender sore spots. :angry: most all of us know that it means one thing only: to stand away from GOD!!! to move away from God. to defiantly resist god and all things godly.

however, along comes watchtower religion and they blasphemously bastardize the term to mean (in their lingo) to neglect to follow explicitly the watchtower doctrines and practices. in so doing, how many of christ's "little ones" have they crushed and destroyed with their evil apostasy doctrine? :rant: ok. time for my blood pressure medicine. :whistle:

your friend and brother, ... iso...

Hi E-magine,

Yeah, I had to sit through that part at the convention and just shake my head. They didnt really answer anything, it was more an affirmation of their position and authority. Most of what I heard fit with what I said here ....

[it comes from a man and is not laid out plainly in scripture.

Before, they had me as their prisoner, but now, to get satisfying answers, I am learning to look elsewhere. With my trust in GOD and CHRIST , not an organization.

YOU said:They Advocated asking questions, but not to look further then their WT literature! And not to "question" that!

Yes, so sad, same old position, it dosent work for me anymore. I hope the other JWs that are thinking similar will realize that questioning by WT "rules" just wont work.

The WT has helped many understand biblical morals and some important truths, in this I see Gods blessing. But their authoritarian "unity at all cost" attitude is what gives them a cult like control over people, and this I cannot see being from God.

Thanks for the comments
Jayme

Quote of the week!! :clap::clap::clap:


Dont ya love it when that happens? Im definitely a nemo clown fish nano-particle....or at least, thats what God showed me...:thumbsup:;):thumbup:

My dear brother iso,

You are so kind to hold your tongue. My experience is one of old age and just a little more wisdom than I once possessed. I expect very little from those misled by the “theocratic words” so eloquently parroted by they who think they’re above the law—above Christ and who have placed themselves on Christ’s throne. And yes, Jayme, how can I condemn my brothers who sincerely believe they’ve been guided spiritually? Yet, words such as “apostasy” are so all pervasive and unforgiving when uttered by them.

e-magine, maybe we’ve been in it too long. Maybe we’re tired of fighting the rhetoric. A new generation of youngsters have grown to believe—bright-eyed and ready to die for a faith they aren't even allowed to question for a moment. ‘Prove it to yourselves’ I said to all of my kids. “This is not your religion. This is the religion chosen freely by your mom and dad as verifiable, provable by our own independent brains while we studied Christian, Hebrew and Aramaic text uninhibited by religion.”

Yet now it seems we’re raising little Mormon missionaries who cannot reason. Not because we have no provable text. We have it all just the same as the rest of Christendom. But we can no longer think for ourselves. Doubt cannot go beyond what is written—not in scripture—but in WT literature of the “Faithful Slave” class that sits on Christ’s throne. And just like little bright-eyed Mormon missionaries with their “elder” badges who cannot reconcile a single doubt in text without the priestly services of their bishop elders who say that the WT spirit is God’s guiding force that inspires WT literature—you cannot think independently and remain united. Unity is not possible without the price of restraining individualism. No, that will surely send us into apostasy.

It was so much simpler when I joined. I still remember all of those who grew up knowing nothing else crowding around me after my “experience” was read and as I stood to identify myself as one who actually ran the gauntlet to have my “baptism by fire.” And did I not jump into their midst as they were about to make me a god and did I not say, “Why are you doing this? Am I not also human having the same infirmities as you?”

But I misled them. I told them they didn’t need to do as I did. And what did I know? I was the privileged one, allowed to grow up without a religion. I had no conditional love thrust upon me by friends and family. And when I became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I was not disfellowshipped by my family and friends. Did they not allow me to discuss my new found faith? But let it be the other way around. Let me grow up as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and then change to say, Mormonism, Islam, or Judaism. Would they have been as tolerant? Sort of begs the question—now that it’s permissible for Jehovah’s Witnesses to take blood fractions, is it permissible to also donate blood for producing fractions? Can permission be conditional? Is love?

Today my grandchildren are third generation. They only have to listen to mom and dad and they will be loved. But they must believe that the truth is the truth and nothing but the truth so help them Jehovah. And if they ever want to live with family and friends in paradise and not lose everything at Armageddon, then unquestioning obedience is now no longer an option. It is our condition of God’s love and our own. So much for this year’s District Convention dramatization of the Prodigal Son—a hopeless mishmash of WT conditional love.

To this day I still believe what was revealed to me by God. I am not being coerced or threatened. And I am not worried whether my children will continue to love me. Their love for me isn’t what matters. If I have resolved in my heart to love my worst enemy, how can I ever neglect, ignore or coerce my own children with conditions of belief that are not theirs—not revealed to them? Is that not what our heavenly Father has done? So my only doubts are with those who cannot love unconditionally, who have been trained by dependent thinking to hate those who should be loved.

The spiritual man within has always prodded me to Bible reading. Whereas there are many good publications with excellent arguments produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses, there are just as many and more that are severely flawed. I have never taken them as inspired. But others do. Most who have, and particularly those who grew up under the WT umbrella and later left, left even that which was reasonable because the element of hate tainted their hearts. Hate tars everything with the same brush and justifies absolute departure. My opinion of Jehovah’s Witnesses hasn’t changed but theirs has. But then, my memory still serves me well and I have watched the hierarchy change. While there is nothing closer to the truth in issues of neutrality, morals and the Hellenistic doctrines of Christendom, most are blind to the twisting of other scriptures to control minds, Jayme is right. It is to get collective agreement.

So we have a hierarchy of leaders and their followers—"company men," yes-men—who are nothing more than religious tailgaters who haven't yet received the spirit but wish that they had and so tailgate those they believe have received the spirit but are blown this way and that by every whimsical doubt too profound to confess. All this, I believe, is the devil’s bidding—permitted by God, of course.

Each one of us needs to think independently. Jayme you have a large family and I don't envy the task ahead of you. If there is one piece of advice I can give, it is to tell your kids you love them often and unconditionally. Tell them to think independently so that, even if they don't so readily respond to the good news about the Christ, they will always know they will have your love unchanged for as long as our Father permits, for there is nothing worse in a religion than when the conditions of love are being asked in infancy when they are too young to know for themselves. Jesus set the example. Why did he wait until 30 to be baptized?

:read:

Thanks, Smoldering Wick, for those heartfelt words of wisdom.:hug:
I try hard to let my kids know I'll always love them and be here for them. We are a close family. I try to set a good example in love and empathy, and treat each one as an individual. We try to help them grow in their personal relationship with Jehovah and Christ, at their own pace and without dependance on others in that relationship. I dont want what has happened to me and my wife to happen to them if I can help it.

I do fear that our family bonds will be stressed in the future because of the WT hardline attitudes. I hope my children are not decieved, but I must leave that in Gods hands and pray He supports us all through it.

They really are pressering family ties now. My wifes uncle is df'ed, he is bipolar and has a hard time. During the recent CO visit the bro. brought out that in addition to what the bible says at 1 cor. 5:11 about treatment of df'ed ones, that the "faithful slave" has seen fit to add :shocked: that even close family members should under no circumstances give emotional support to their df'ed loved ones. So sad:crybaby:. Her uncle got up and left the hall at that point. The next week his father-in-law was removed as an elder and his mother-in-law was removed as a pioneer for giving them support. They were told they could not even help with their grandkids at the meetings. The situation is really getting sick.:angry:

So many are being crushed, and yes I'm afraid your right, that many hearts are being tainted by the element of hate. May we all pray for them, that Jehovah will touch their hearts ounce again. I worry about my wife, I fear she is at this point. Its all been just too much and she has just had to back away from all things of God. :(

Praying for all:pray:
Jayme

Hey SW:hibye: ....great thread!

Usually, I detest reams of 'cut 'n pastes'. But this topic triggered memory of an excellent article going back to 1957 that contained some good points on 'independent thinking' in a favorable sense. That was probably the last time it was encouraged by a WT writer. Please excuse the long quote but I truly didn't know what I could remove.

Ahhhh....but the very next year the WT slammed the Catholic people in Ireland for letting their thinking become enslaved by the clergy. Listen to the pot calling the kettle black!

Over the decades I've observed two distinct streams coming from the WT: There have always been those who were real students of God's word...committed Christians who would have died for their faith and their brothers. And then there were the political, business Christians ....company men they've been called. I didn't really notice these latter ones at first. Mainly because love: "believes all things" (1 Corinthians 13:1-8) and I wanted to believe the best about my brothers ...all of them!

It is so heart-breaking when we first see these impostors, the super-fine apostles as Paul so susinctly called them. If you were to read a WT article going back to 1961 where they try to put themselves on the same level as the apostles and give their own words the same force as those first-century bible writers, it would make you sick...knowing what you know now.

Have a look at how they wiggle in their own authority alongside Christ in this paragraph. Read the scriptures they use to support their arguments and tell me how these bible verses tell us to be united to an organization. I thought Christ Jesus was the vine.:funnyface:

Please don't misunderstand...I'm not against individual Christians uniting for worship but you would be hard-pressed to find a group that hasn't developed a man-made creed that all in the group must accept in order to be an "approved member".

Yes, add me to the list of Happy Heretics!:P

Love, Rez:siskiss: