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Nice research, Rez!! Love it!:readthis::P

“Independent thinking” is feared by persons who want to control others, because such ones are themselves prisoners and fear for their positions. Ray Franz has a good treatise of this topic in the chapter Captives to a Concept in his book In Search of Christian Freedom. Persons that are mentally captives to creeds cease being able to do new discovery and are only able to perpetuate the status quo.

An example of how this works is seen when the conventional wisdom of ancient times was that the earth was flat and rode on the backs of giant turtles. Whether that was true or not was never as much the issue as was anyone who dared to question that the ones in authority might be wrong. The act of questioning is of itself an act of independence, an act that can lead to the finding of real truth. Persons that seek real Truth are willing to question things, and have the right motive in seeking the right answers.

Good answers only come as the result of good questions.

Jesus said that the truth would set one free – free from what? Just false doctrines? Surely that’s a part of the freedom. But even greater than that persons are set free from the domination of men or ideologies that are themselves not free. In my view the exciting thing about the chance to be set free, is to be able to fulfill the potential that each one of us has, to not be limited by the boundaries of our fellow man, and to encourage the growth of each other’s freedoms and supporting that we are all empowered as free persons.

Independent thinking is the stuff of real discovery when it seeks the benefits of some greater goal such as the goal to actually know God or to benefit one’s fellow man. Jesus gave this as the greatest goal of all, to know God and the one whom God sent forth as persons. Only independent thinking persons will be able to accomplish this goal.


v r

Hi Veritas Re-

Your post got me thinking about what constitute an independent thinker. Of course, all thinking is unique to the individual, since we are all unique. Yet most of the time we go about our daily business without much thought process about what is happening around us. Of course, if we contemplated everything we saw as the day progressed we wouldn't get much else done. It's when someone does look at the ordinary and sees it from a new perspective that we actually have original, independent thinking.

Some of the most original thinkers that exist must be comedians. It is because they can take absolutely ordinary day to day aspect of life and put a new spin on it that we find it hilarious. The reason it is so funny is because as soon as it is stated we see the application which was right in front of our faces all the time but we never saw it until it was pointed out. Another group, like the comedians, are some cartoonists, especially political cartoonist. Larson is one cartoonist that comes to mind. To find the humor they must see the subject from a different perspective, perhaps one that even ruffles some feathers. Some go further and actually incite others to do some thinking of their own. Now that is powerful.

The truth is that most people don't want to think much. Thinking takes effort and they just want to take the easy route and not rock the boat. Rocking the boat just causes unnecessary problems - and who wants more problems. Have you every met a person that hasn't read a book since high school. And they're proud of it. It's scarey. They don't want to expand their mind, even if it is only on a work of fiction. The status quo is just fine with them. And these people make up a large portion of the populus, which is why so many things stagnate. It is also why the elitists imagine that "the people" need to be told what to do, because if they were thinking, or even wanted to think, they'd be doing something about what is going on in the world today. In some ways they are right, but they also equate thinking with amassing money, which is short sighted. They love their money and it, along with the power it brings, becomes their god.

The bottom line is that our Father in the heavens wants us to use our brain. He expects us to think. He expects us to separate the truth from the fiction. He expects us to figure it out - and that's when the truth sets us free. And like the comedians, sometimes we have to examine things from different perspectives to see it as it really is.

Molly

For all those who need comic relief ----> Welcome to Hell

Well....we just finished discussing this topic in the think tank. Very lively! Thanks for this thread and all the replies!

Someone may want to post some of our conclusions....meanings of words and their usage (and mis usage) Personal experience too.

Love, Rez:drinking:

Funny!:rofl:
Needed to see satan, my ex wants to talk to me again. They are the same to me.
You know my freaky NWO painting? He wants to buy it so that I can say that I've sold it and have the option of bragging that I am a professional artist in my arsenal of self promotion. What the heck do I want to promote myself about? Nothing that isn't from my heart and most of the time its thinking about hope in making a better day and/or night for God and in return, a better day for anyone crossing in my path, I hope.
Independent thinking has become a tighter stronghold JW's. Almost like a hanging; long and painful and all the body members suffer agony as it need oxygen and blood flow. Its horrifying watching our loved ones make enormous errors from the lack of be able to think for ourself. I am actually proud (just a little bit, enough to put a lift in my step when pondering about the joy and freedom I feel in being spiritually watchful and appreciative of the simplicity)
Weren't heretics always shown in a picture with agonizing torture? Just the pictures alone scare us. But, I always felt deep down, aren't we supposed to be heretics? But, the scary picture is supposed to keep us in fear. The NWO promotes/predicts a torturous depiction of Christians. One of the reasons I detest the NWO is the fear factor they teach.
Christ says not to fear, so anyone teaching should be teaching a good outcome for Christians, IMHO.
Apostasy never made sense to me. You would have to deny the Christ after knowing Christ, in order to apostatize? Right?
As always, thanks for the chat:grouphug:

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

PS. I told him(my ex) that I can't sell satan (my picture) to satan. Not very funny in a way, this guy is really evil and comes off like an angel. I think I'm going to have to go to the police. He has me right now because he is sending the kids a piece of him. That's priceless and a high price at the same time.
Well, I believe I'll walk through this one pretty straight (thank God) and pretty broke, he won't send his child support. God provides and we can make it, lets see what pans on the stove that are cooking that God is making turn into something delicious!

Jesus said to be come like little children, and what do little children do? they question everything, whats this, why that and so forth. The whole reason where here to day is because Jehovah didn't want to be worshiped by robots, he didn't want people to be programmed to love him out of fear, but to love him for being our creator and father. Our only fear should be of making Jehovah heart sad, not that we fear man and conform despite the wrongs which exist.
As the scriptures say true love has no fear of man, it believes all things, hopes all things and doesn't take account of the injury. Our role model is Jesus Christ and we are taught to walk in his foot steps, I'm sure if he was in the organisation today, there's no way he would sit back and turn a blind eye to the goings on. Whats happening to day is far worse than a few money lenders. Apostasy is what the WTS do best, their action which they took upon themselves to become part of the UN as an NGO is the best description of apostasy if i ever saw one.

Jah Bless
Elizabeth

so very true sis,

"Our only fear should be of making Jehovah heart sad, "

What is LOVE? IF we only new.
But when Does a selfless Father put a stop to the children wreaking extreme havoc?

he has allowed me to understand sadness that I am sure of.

Thats an interesting quote Totaldismay

"But when Does a selfless Father put a stop to the children wreaking extreme havoc?"

I guess he puts a stop to the extreme havoc, when the actions of the majority effects the spirituality of the minority and their personal relationship with their father is in jeopardy :read:

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth

Courage (strength of heart) + the conquest of fear = Love
:thinking:
[a formula in progress]

We had a great chat about this topic in the ThinkTank, so thanks SW and all contributors to the topic. It wasn’t easy for me to grasp the difference between apostacy and heresy, but here is what I think I got from it:

Apostacy is a standing aside from the faith. It is not a doctrinal issue. Heresy is more to do with that side of things. Standing aside is reckoned to be to stop acting on your faith, or acting improperly towards your faith. So while no apostate is claiming that what their fellows are believing is false, understandings are being twisted and elements of the faith are being ignored to take the life out of the faith.

Heresy is where someone wants to change the body of doctrine or parts of it. But I was left wondering afterwards – surely somewhere there is a point where reinterpretation and misapplication of scripture borders on the heretical?

P.S. Frank, I'm glad you're back!

I wanted to qualify my ideas about independent thinking. In my mind true “independence” is not open ended and must employ responsibility to higher principle. Adam exercised independence, but he did it in a way that did not resolve to the cosmic higher principles that the Most High set in place, and by so doing interjected issues that were not resolvable by human means.

Adam exercised independence in a wrong way because he did not apply the cosmic principles which, like gravity, cannot be disregarded without consequence. For example, for humans on earth exercising “independence” by jumping off some high precipice – would experience an immediate direct result: injury or death. Adam’s exercise of ideological independence interjected problems that could not be fixed by ordinary means, and the results of his incorrect use of independence would take thousands of years to fully understand and the negative results to completely bloom.

In providing divine assistance to the errant creation, the Most High was bound by his own rulebook: how to straighten out the problems and still allow persons to be as they were created, in God’s image as free moral agents, capable of independent thought and action. The only way that would work along these lines would be to recommend his own ways to persons, to appeal to their sense of right and wrong based on the inborn moral code of being created in God’s image. This would allow persons to show what they were really about, to be able to make the right choices, according to the cosmic code God has set in place. Such ones would show by their independent choices that they want to be in alignment with God’s principles despite what anyone else was doing. On the flipside, there would be persons that would independently make the other choice to not abide by the cosmic principles.

True independence happens when persons choose the cosmic right over the cosmic not right. There is something about the making of such a choice that reveals what persons are really about and this is how God will be able to correctly judge as to everlasting life or everlasting non-existence.

So our independence is really about what our inner moral code is, and our thoughts and actions will reveal this however imperfectly. This is why I think that it’s dangerous to adhere to manmade religions or creeds, since the ability of independent thought and action diminishes with time and numbers. The heretics are able to retain independent thought, and even if their ideas are not completely correct, such ones are motivated to find and practice pure truth and can stay tuned into the higher cosmic principles, and have a better chance of success in properly exercising their independence. The dynamics of “group think” seen throughout history proves the folly of group efforts – at least in the long haul.

v r

I agree.

The entire idea of independent thought is intrinsically linked to choice—whether good or bad. And while it is impossible to have choice without independent thinking, any attempt to organize such thinking within a communal voting structure would only inhibit the purity of this God-given attribute of free moral choice.

So really, while religious groupthink is an easier road, it is, in reality a dangerous cop-out that nullifies any individual relationship we might hope to achieve with our Creator. Why else had He given us a conscience? Is it not our personal barometer designed to measure decisions we make independently and objectively while living subjectively within the framework of a community limited in knowledge and resources?

In other words, independent thinking is integral to all choices arising from such thought as decisions are made—whether wise or unwise—as we prayerfully and modestly choose the higher mind. Therefore, while heretics are accountable to their religion and apostates are accountable to God, independent thinkers are really only accountable to their own conscience which in the end must still stand before God.

sw:giverose:

Heresy is a little like beauty...it is in the eye of the beholder.

No one is entirely independent in thought, however, the term independent thinker, is sometimes used as a coded message to show a person does not agree with their (majority) opinion.
I think its self-application is a form of vanity, we are all influenced by our experience and education.

No believer could really think of themselves as an apostate.