Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

My dearest dearest spiritual FAMILY OF MY HEART :heartbeat:

It has been waaaay too long since I have been able to put finger to keyboard and share some time with you ... sooooooooo much going on ... so many tests and so many curve balls ... but in our God and his Son's strength we are managing to carry on ...

I do check in often even if it is only for 5 minutes or less because then we don't feel quite so alone in our search for truth do we ... :read::thinking:

Interesting thoughts as this is a scripture that I myself have been using (in light of a different form of reasoning on some 'research' (yeah manhu dear still digging but not as much as I'd these last few months ... lol)

One of them being ...

If our 'heart is treacherous' ... then how can we supposed serve our God 'with our WHOLE HEART, soul, mind and strength' especially when we are imperfect men and women who cannot use true 'whole' of anything ...? :dontknow::huh::thinking:

But I digress ... :blush:

Just some quick thoughts with a scripture or two thrown in for good measure ... ;):siskiss:

I too believe that our 'hearts' is something very precious ... for does it not sustain our very lives ... both in a 'spiritual' and 'literal' sense ...

So indeed we should 'safeguard' both spiritually and physically ... taking care as to what we 'feed' it spiritually and how we live our physical lives so as to keep it beating in health as long as is humanly possible ...

Interesting to note the scripture quoted already ...

Jer. 17:9 ...

(ESV) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

(DRB) The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it?

(BBE) The heart is a twisted thing, not to be searched out by man: who is able to have knowledge of it?

(New World Translation) "The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?

To read this scripture at face value would give us pause as to WANT to put our trust in anything that could come out of it wouldn't it ... that it would lead us in a self-destructive path no matter if we thought we were going the right way ...

Perhaps it might be good for us to ask ourselves our WHY is such a 'blanket' kind of statement being made here and indeed in harmony with so many other scriptures as to the condition of our 'hearts' ...?

Is it to 'discourage' us ...? or to 'warn' us so as to keep us on our our toes so that we will continue to 'examine ourselves' as to our 'motives' and 'real desires' ...

This same verse also describes our hearts as being ...

desperate
corrupt
not being able to know it (although if we can't know it how can we 'examine it' ...? :huh::dontknow: ... again I digress :P)
unsearchable
incurable (isn't that what the ransom is for anyway)
wicked
sick
weak

My with all these descriptions it would seem we wouldn't stand a chance wouldn't it ...

That if our God would examine our hearts as he says he will do and already does we should just stick up our feet and lie down in defeat ...

I decided to look up this scripture in my esword and found that the word here also has some OTHER meanings ... meanings that I guess I wanted to put on the table as it gave me a wee bit of a different slant that wasn't quite so discouraging ... but rather realistic in a way of PROTECTING ourselves ...

The Hebrew word for the above list is ...

H605 אנשׁ 'ânash aw-nash'

A primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy: - desperate (-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.

So, since our hearts our 'frail' or 'feeble' we may at times NOT be able to see just what we CAN do for our God as we follow in the footsteps of our Lord perhaps?

Since our heart are 'melancholy' ... or as the dictionary defines this word ... sadness or gloom... sometimes depression ... we may be overcome by negative emotions that may not let us see the LIGHT that is shining in our hearts to help us 'see' what we need to see when we need to see it ...

We can also see this by the last meanful of woeful which has the meanings of ...

Suffering from usually prolonged anguish: miserable, woebegone, wretched.

Full of or expressive of sorrow: doleful, dolorous, lugubrious, mournful, plaintive, rueful, sad, sorrowful, woebegone.

Causing sorrow or regret: deplorable, doleful, dolorous, grievous, lamentable, mournful, regrettable, rueful, sad, sorrowful.

Yes in light of what the Israelites were doing at this time in their history, their hearts had most certainly led them down a wrong path ... and some of their hearts were experiencing the feelings of regret and remorse at the bad state of affairs they had come to.

A good warning to us in a way ...

For if we have trained our 'conscious' well to be able to' DISTINGUISH right from wrong' (then we MUST be able to 'know' our hearts to some degree as they would seem to be connected to me ...) then we should HEED its warning of 'danger Will Robinson' (movie show) and stop doing whatever it is we are being 'warned' about ... and thus proving that our hearts is 'pure' for our God ... that we are 'teaching' it to be as 'good' as we can in an imperfect body and mind ... and thus not becoming 'saddened' by our course of action ...

And ...

Since we know our hearts ARE FEEBLE or WEAK ...

INCLINED to do BAD even when we don't want to ... then we WILL pummel our bodies and lead it as a slave to do the very best we can to serve our Lord and our Father in spirit and truth with as much of our 'hearts' as we possibly can ... focusing on the day when 'serving our God with our WHOLE HEART, soul, mind and strength will become a REALITY ... when our EVERY INCLINATION will be for good and right ... that our hearts will be STRONG ENOUGH and TRUE enough to lead us in the 'paths of uprightness' for all of our days!!

Well, I gotta run :jogging: ... my time has run out for computer for now :post: ...

Sorry for being so long-winded ... :shocked: again ... :happyheart:

May our God and Christ Jesus watch over you all each and everyday ... and please know that you are all in my prayers :pray: ... that I love you all dearly ... :heartbeat::grouphug::friends: and that I can't wait to talk to you again as soon as is possible ...

Your sis of the hearts ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

I think it should really say, "DESIRE" is treacherous. I believe that the heart is used as a metaphor FOR desire , although I dont think that the heart IS desiire.

In other words, I mostly agree with Chuck and e- magine.

First, I want to say :hibye: to Bruised Reed!

I did think about your post BR. I read it a couple of times and put some thought into it. I can now understand where some people are coming from. So, thank you for putting your time and effort in writing to us, on the forum:heartbeat:

Some decisions that we make are impulsive and some are expected. I don't think of heart 'treachery' as being something that can't be protected by faith and good works. God and King Jesus can (and do) protect us and guide us from making any decision that would make us feel compromised from not being about to trust ourselves and our motivation of keeping a good heart.

I think that is where some of you are coming from. I have to agree that any of us who have deep faith should feel comforted and strong about our 'new hearts'. On that account, alone, I concede to this perception-as perhaps, the 'better' perception.

I am going to say that our hearts will still make us make a bad decision, though. Without the blessings, protection and forgiveness of the 'spirit' from above; we can spiral into a very destructive path. My belief is that anyone who is on a destructive path that has a conscience knows that they are betraying their own heart that is not aligned with Godliness.

I don't feel 'saddened' that my heart is treacherous. I feel that even more, I need to put my faith in our Shepard. Just a moment of extra time and patience can make a world of difference.

Just a few professions that can sadden the heart with 'right' or 'wrong' choices- sales (that's a biggie, especially if its commissioned based and your feeling desperate!), attorneys (who may be defending someone quite evil), and parents (oh God! I can never stop a list of decisions that feel like treachery of the heart-starting with immunizations, blood transfusions, to teaching them spiritual values, and when I'm tired, even more!How about over indulgent parents, whats their decisions saying about their hearts?).

I feel my heart needs to be put in check. I appreciate every good gift that helps me keep it healthy!:giverose: But, I don't completely trust everything. Often, I make a decision or a reaction and have to 'examine' my motivation and then adjust.

I will also admit to being very hard on myself. So maybe, my perception is skewed a little 'tight'. :confused:

Love to you All, Debbie

For a long time, the WT taught that the Bible "heart" was also the literal heart pump. :giggle: The Bible heart is actually the sub conscious mind that records all and every thought and experience we ever had, and greatly affects our consciousness. It is located mostly in our brains, but also in our intestines, yes, that's right, as well as every living cell to some extent. :heartbeat:

I really enjoyed your post Bruised Reed. Thanks for all the extra research, it is encourageing .:)

I have always beat myself up pretty bad, but I'm starting to understand that Jehovah didnt write these seemingly negative things about our hearts to discourage us or make us feel hopeless. Rather its because He loves us. Hes being honest and helping us to understand the condition we find ourselves in.

Jehovah and His Son Christ Jesus are with us to help us with wisdom and streghth and hope. Isnt that what the good news is all about? If we are not flawed by adamic sin, and thus are unable to be fully as we were created to be, then for what purpose is the Ransom in our behalf? It truly is as our Loving and merciful Physician said at Matt.9:12,13.

"Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do. Go, then, and learn what this means, 'I want mercy and not sacrifice.' For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners."

[color=#000000]May we all know that we truly are loved and that our present condition will be cured by Him, if we keep hoding on tight.

:love:Jayme[/color]

Seems the 'innermost parts' are all affected:

Jeremiah 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.[KJV]

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching all his innermost parts.[ASV]

Psalm 51:6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.[NASB]

Psalm 26:2 Examine me, O LORD, and try me;
Test my [b]mind and my heart.
[b]Psalm 26:2 Lit. kidneys, figurative for inner man [NASB]

I knew 'kidneys' were in there somewhere, but it didn't come up in the word search!

Jeremiah 11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.[KJV]

Where the heck did that word "reins" come from? :scratchhead: My dictionary doesn't have any definition of 'innards' for it! Young's Literal Translation uses "reins" too - the NWT has 'kidneys'; most translations have 'mind' - which makes more sense to me too, e-brother. But think about the time in which that was written - before anatomical research for sure - all of it being thought of as 'the inner man' as the NASB footnote explains.

:thumbup:Sure makes one think, Jayme - thank you for starting a lively and thought-provoking thread!

And BR - :friends:what a lovely post - makes me miss you ever-so much - and makes me glad for every word you do post - you are a blessing, dear sister o' mine!:cheekkiss:

:peace:

I have a question about whats happening in my life and you guys tell me if its treachery or not, at least on some level-

I WANT my husband to STAY in jail!

I don't want to be responsible for him.

I think that if he is around me, he will compromise my mind, body and spiritual health and then I will feel sad that I should not be so weak to allow another to weaken my resolve.

I think I should put up with him with long suffering and kindness like the bible says, but I don't think I can. He's a horrible mess and I'm tired of the BS.


1. Am I being a treacherous wife?
2. Am I being a treacherous Christian?

Thanks for your input, Sis Deb:siskiss:

1. Am I being a treacherous wife?
2. Am I being a treacherous Christian?

Nope

He is not your child and you are not responsible for him.

If he has made mistakes whilst trying to look after you all that is a different thing, and you may want to reconsider, but if you baby an adult all their lives they will remain a baby.

You are supposed to be under his protection, your children are under yours.
Put them first, then protect yourself.
In the line of 'command' he should be looking after you and your children.

When this breaks down, women can go straight to Jesus as our head.
Many times in the Bible the headship with a man has broken down (Abigail). So go straight to your unfaultering head, Jesus, and talk directly to him, let him be your guide.
What a wonderful husband to have!

Hey love you lots Debbie let's get Skype chat going.

vicky

Well what can a smoldering wick tell a bruised reed? Only that the WHOLE HEART is NOT double hearted, nor is it half-hearted.

The heart just doesn't think for itself very well and relies on brainpower to train its logical side. As for possessing powers of reason, the heart doesn't have much, if any. Yet it makes all the decisions and renders the indecisive helpless. It has feelings that are incapable of discerning right and wrong yet intuitions that cannot be denied. I know. I've spent half a lifetime being deceived by a wanting (slightly vacant) heart and the other half analyzing and repenting from its wily ways.

A man's heart wanders in different circles than a woman's (viva la difference!) so I can only speak for half of humanity and from my own experience. Yes, the heart is treacherous. True. It wants what it can't have. It desires good feelings and happiness and can't get them soon enough. But it's short on discernment and will thank you later for the good sense of discipline imposed upon it by the mind so that the conscience doesn't keep flogging it.

e-magine, you were likely around for those visual dramas (mocked up cutouts of talking hearts and minds). A lot of imagination went into demonstrating how different the heart and mind converse (in animated, humourous ways of course). It was all in good fun but it was also a sobering wake-up call to me that while the mind thinks, the heart doesn't. It just feels and desires.

Once looped and corralled, it will indeed love Jehovah in a wholesome way. But it's treachery will also always be present in its sinful state.

:heartbeat::giverose:
sw

Dear Sis Vic:love:,

Thank you for your support:hug:! You are a dear! :giverose:

Unfortunately, everything inside me says that I am in a treacherous position. I have my marriage vows to think of, and that's enough to make me ill right now. My heart was desperate for a husband. I KNEW he had to have problems. I FELT I could carry us in encouragement and faith.

Oh, how I wish (I should pray, more, not wish) my husband would pray and take headship under Christ. We would be so much happier!

I guess my first arrangement will have to be, absolutely NO alcohol! I have a part of me who is weak, especially to pouting or pressure. I can't visualize myself "strong" through this period. I have overwhelming "emotions" and "mental signals". I kind of "short out". Like, I have with my children. The summer is ending much easier with him in jail. :clap: My children are still demanding, as they will be, they're children! I'm trying to enjoy, while I teach them. Its a tough job, but its really nice when I feel special moments.:heartbeat:

Kindness, Love and forgiveness have not taken place over anger, disappointment, and frustration, where my husband is concerned.

Work is brutal today. I have to tell people that I can't hire them once I feel that they don't make an 'ideal candidate' for a job. Wow! Some people get rather upset!!!!!

Sorry for subject changes, I interact with life between written sentences. That's why some of my posts go in different directions. I get frustrated over trying to express a point. Sometimes, its not until later where I see that I didn't express the point I was intending. But, I blessed to be at home at the "hub" of my world.:heartbeat:

With Sis Love, Vicky:siskiss:. I'm going to end up doing some errands. The vegetables that we planted this weekend endured 'shock' and are flowering or progressing.:cheer: After a downpour, My daughter noticed 'the crushing of the rosebush'. It lost its already bloomed flowers, but has shown a new one this morning. The roof dumps water right on it. Don't know what to do, yet.:dontknow:

My husband just called from jail. I put a $25.00 payment on the call I took the last time (and the only call, I've caught and taken). The machine says I have to put $25.00 down again. I'm not paying $25.00 a call! I probably should check into how to find my initial balance, but I don't care that much. That's treachery in my heart! I know it as going contrary to what beautiful expressions of what love and forgiveness are about!

I guess its about 'time' and 'testing' on his own part. I pray he sees himself.

My heart just cracks more-

The doctor (its been about six months, I'm doing well and have lost three pounds while taking a med that usually adds weight, yeah!:cheer:) asks me about my life and we talk, very quickly about alot of subjects, she has a great memory and I am pleased where I am medically.

Well, she asks me if I love my husband after explaining my joy of my husband being in jail. I told her NO. That's a lie. I do have love for him and always answer YES, when asked. I don't have DEEP RESPECT for him and its causing a chasm of resentment and that is in the forefront of my mind. So I tripped an answer that I should, as a wife, say, "Of course I love him. I'll get him straightened out, God willing." and shut my trap!

I don't know how to deal with this.:dontknow:

But, I do know I'm going swimming ans have to work. See you all, later, this afternoon.:heartbeat:

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

PS. Smoldering Wick, I think I'm closer in mind with you on the heart issue. I appreciate how you describe and explain things.:hibye:

In the interlinear it says kidneys.
I suspect it is an old fashioned word taken from the French.
The French for kidneys is reins, though if you are talking about buying animal kidneys they are rognons.

And the pronunction is obviously different in French. The N and S are not pronounced.

speaking of kidneys (you wouldn't kidney, now wouldja, vicky) :P i happen to come from a family of very long livers. :huh: and our kidneys are all shaped like swimming pools. :whistle: