Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

First I would like to acknowledge the time and effort put into the posts by SOJ on Info on 144k and Interpretum on Rev. chapter by chapter.( I have not read all of it yet, but I do consider it before posting information addressed there.)

My position is that the 144,000 is possibly neither literal or figurative, but instead representative. (I originated this post on another forum)

Literal: in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical: the literal meaning of a word.

Figurative: of the nature of or involving a figure of speech, esp. a metaphor; metaphorical; not literal

Representative: serving to represent; representing, of or pertaining to a system of governance by chosen representatives, usually elected from among a large group: representative government.

The witnesses use the fact that the "great crowd," mentioned in Revelation, as being without number is direct evidence to support the 144,000 as being literal or definite. [Reasoning book] "If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the "great crowd."

1. Being a definite number does not make it literal; it could merely be representative just as the number 666 is definite yet representative.

2. Just because the "Great Crowd" is in contrast as being without number, this does not prove 144,000 is literal. It simply proves the "great crowd is without number!

3. WTS claims that it 144,000 would lack meaning if it wasn't literal. That is being presumptuous.

Consider:

*The WTS teaches the 12 tribes, where this 144,000 comes from, is to be understood as figurative.

*The number from each tribe is to be considered figurative. (because of the tribes of Levi and Joseph being listed)

*The Israel which these individuals come from is to be considered as being figurative.

*They teach the 24 Elders are also this 144,000 so that would make the 24 elders (24 also being a definite #) figurative.

It is quite interesting that the sole source of power (authority) within this religion is based on something so figurative. And people are supposed to believe that everything written about the 144,000 in the bible is to be understood as being figurative, except the number itself.

Whether it is literal or figurative is really not the issue. To go beyond/ahead of what the bible teaches is.

I am certain the 24 elders are not the 144,000
The WT jumps all over the place in Revelation ignoring simple logic.
How can the 24 elders be in heaven before the resurrection has started, before Jesus is even given the scroll, the mandate for a kingdom? The righteous are still under the altar when Jesus breaks seal five on that scroll.

What is more worrying is that they have lost a whole group of righteous people in their theology. They are so busy with the 144,000 that they forget that there are twelve tribes of spiritual Israelites that has been cleansed of idolatry, also mentioned in Rev. 7

vicky

Yes, and another interesting twist of scripture involving these groups: Revelation Climax page 201 paragraph 10

"How can the 144,000 sing "before" the elders, since the 24 elders are the 144,000 in their glorious heavenly position?..............The remnant of the 144,000 still on earth are therefore singing the new song before, or in the sight of, their resurrected brothers in heaven."

Revelation (ASV) 14:2 "And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard `was' as `the voice' of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, `even' they that had been purchased out of the earth.

*The 144,000 are mentioned as doing the singing, not a remnant.

*The singing is being done in Heaven, not from the earth.

*The singing is done before the 24 elders who are there also.