Better defined as the persecuted versus the persecutor—those who avoid political unity and those who subscribe to it for the sake of protection—or so they reason.
Since I began unwinding my Jehovah’s Witness mentality. I’ve also discovered that there’s very few books that have hit the presses or remain in print that simplify what was made complicated. On the other hand there is no end to the books written that complicate the simple. Keeping it simple is a truism in itself. Complicating truisms is just another way of lying.
The world is dominated by two kinds of people—those who want to lead and those who want someone else to lead them. While there are those who prefer the wilderness in an honest open minded search, they are a minority. There are many Biblical accounts of just how lonely this true road is.
Religion has, in my opinion, always been a political snare. When the WT got caught cosying up to the UN, that was just the tip of the iceberg. It has done what all religious structures have. It became political—which it had to to survive, just like the rest.
People gravitate to commmunity for protection. Others lead people into community because it is their nature to assist and they truly believe they can. But such nobility only lasts until the scum rises to the top. For this reason all religions end up trading their once admirable mandate for a new collective, a political strength, and so end up persecuting the very ones who sought protection from the outside.
History proves that every religion will eventually invite corruption and defeat its own directive. The more convinced it becomes of its mission, the more it will seek unity within itself and all adherents to ‘tow the party line.’ After all, strength is in numbers when bargaining for power and political protection. This is what happened to the early church so why would it be any different today? If Jesus were to arrive at any time in the same manner as before, from the first Romanized church to the present, is there a religion out there untainted? I see none.
History proves that every religion will eventually invite corruption and defeat its own directive. The more convinced it becomes of its mission, the more it will seek unity within itself and all adherents to ‘tow the party line.’ After all, strength is in numbers when bargaining for power and political protection. This is what happened to the early church so why would it be any different today? If Jesus were to arrive at any time in the same manner as before, from the first Romanized church to the present, is there a religion out there untainted? I see none.
So... is there a "one true religion"? :no:
The world is dominated by two kinds of people—those who want to lead and those who want someone else to lead them. While there are those who prefer the wilderness in an honest open minded search, they are a minority. There are many Biblical accounts of just how lonely this true road is.
There is a third kind of people - those who feel they are already being led by our Lord, led to our Father at the end of the thousand years. Such souls don't look for the mythical one-true religion, don't need to lead or be led by anyone or anything, nor do they need to be told what to believe - all those earthly notions which religion induces as essential for salvation. Instead, they cut out the "middle-man" religion and their hearts follow their heavenly leader. That road isn't lonely, isn't insecure - it has neither worries nor fears over the future, and those on it feel comfortable with the Divine Ones and see them in the good light they deserve. Better? :yes:
IHMO
Acts5v29
is there a religion out there untainted? I see none.
I agree.
I believe that the goal of worshipping the Father in spirit and truth, as Jesus said that the true worshippers would accomplish, defines a state of mind and spirit and soul that has to transcend all the trappings of manmade “religionâ€, not join them. Paul the apostle’s words in Hebrews 13 to “go forth to him outside the camp†for me says that the only way to achieve spiritual purity is to have something of a rogue disposition in order to maintain spiritual freeness, to not get caught up in group dynamics. The mechanics of groups start out with every good intention, but in the end go the way of the leader/leadee dynamic.
Jesus exemplified how having humility and deference accomplishes true worship of the Father. The key? To be great, learn to be the least. In its purest form Christianity exists in no particular location or group, as in some physical location like Jerusalem or Samaria, but rather would exist “outside†the confines of manmade organizations with all the baggage that goes along with it: power structures, doctrinal conformity promoted to preserve “unityâ€. I always used to wonder what it meant in Revelation that “these are the ones that follow the Lamb no matter where he goesâ€, and, “no falsehood was found in their mouthsâ€. This can only mean persons that have achieved, as they see it, purity in their faith in that they are internally motivated to worship the Father in spirit and truth - regardless of what anyone else is doing or the pressure put upon them to conform to the groupthink happening in the age they live in. They follow Jesus, in that they see only the Father’s example and are not lead astray by manmade traditions and structures.
This to me is what defines these discussion boards. While no one agrees on all points, all can have a common goal of finding real truth and worshipping the Father – as they see it – in the purest form attainable. Jesus said that no one could get to the Father except through him, so we know that true worship is possible. Motive has to be what they look at – what’s our motive. The correct motive has to be the most important part of our success – our knowledge can be cleared up as we go. And we may have to wait a while for the complete knowledge that Paul spoke of, and so in the meantime the mandate to show love for one another really comes into play. It’s a real challenge to show love and deference, to conduct oneself as a least one, in the face of ideas and beliefs you may not agree with.
Everything else will come with time.
v r
good morning, sw! :hibye: well, i read your post and was all set to comment. then i read the succeeding posts by acts 5v29 and veritas re. they really did say everything i would have said ... only they said it better than i would have. :thumbup: nice thread; and well done to all. :ok:
iso...
Christian Existentialists, secure and enjoying the journey. :friends:
designs
History proves that every religion will eventually invite corruption and defeat its own directive. The more convinced it becomes of its mission, the more it will seek unity within itself and all adherents to ‘tow the party line.’ After all, strength is in numbers when bargaining for power and political protection. This is what happened to the early church so why would it be any different today? If Jesus were to arrive at any time in the same manner as before, from the first Romanized church to the present, is there a religion out there untainted? I see none.
So... is there a "one true religion"? :no:
The world is dominated by two kinds of people—those who want to lead and those who want someone else to lead them. While there are those who prefer the wilderness in an honest open minded search, they are a minority. There are many Biblical accounts of just how lonely this true road is.
There is a third kind of people - those who feel they are already being led by our Lord, led to our Father at the end of the thousand years. Such souls don't look for the mythical one-true religion, don't need to lead or be led by anyone or anything, nor do they need to be told what to believe - all those earthly notions which religion induces as essential for salvation. Instead, they cut out the "middle-man" religion and their hearts follow their heavenly leader. That road isn't lonely, isn't insecure - it has neither worries nor fears over the future, and those on it feel comfortable with the Divine Ones and see them in the good light they deserve. Better? :yes:
IHMO
Acts5v29
The world is dominated by two kinds of people—those who want to lead and those who want someone else to lead them. While there are those who prefer the wilderness in an honest open minded search, they are a minority. There are many Biblical accounts of just how lonely this true road is.
There is a third kind of people - those who feel they are already being led by our Lord, led to our Father at the end of the thousand years. Such souls don't look for the mythical one-true religion, don't need to lead or be led by anyone or anything, nor do they need to be told what to believe - all those earthly notions which religion induces as essential for salvation. Instead, they cut out the "middle-man" religion and their hearts follow their heavenly leader. That road isn't lonely, isn't insecure - it has neither worries nor fears over the future, and those on it feel comfortable with the Divine Ones and see them in the good light they deserve. Better? :yes:
:thumbup:Right on, sis. Which is why I said, "The world is dominated by two kinds of people," but as you say the third aren't lonely anymore, while I was referring to the ancient prophets and faithful Christians who so often were alone against the majority. Even today we are alone in our individual calling while collective in reasoning.
And now as we are given the spirit of our Lord with enlightened hearts we strive to make a difference because our Lord has conquered. So we are not driven by guilt or fear, but pure hearts full of love, wisdom and understanding so that our good conscience in Christ is forgiving us as we go! Thank you for that reminder.
My intent in beginning this research was to zero in on what baptism really is as illuminated by 1 Peter. My feelings every time I listen to a baptismal talk I shake my head in disgust. While dedication is repeated ad nauseum until I wanna :barf:, I have yet to find a scripture that requires "dedication" as a pre-requisite to baptism. And absolutely nothing is said regarding our prayers to God for a good conscience. Guilt and fear are poor motivators.
Blessings,
sw
good morning, sw! :hibye: well, i read your post and was all set to comment. then i read the succeeding posts by acts 5v29 and veritas re. they really did say everything i would have said ... only they said it better than i would have. :thumbup: nice thread; and well done to all. :ok:
iso...
Absolutely my good and faithful bro!:thumbsup: And how much I have loved your endurance 'in spite of many and much!' And I have every confidence that all here will endure so long as we call upon our Lord and Saviour with complete hearts.
Although I have not yet faced the final test, my life is completely absorbed in moving within crowds of so many lost souls who go to mindless church preachings and teachings (not excluding KH's), yet connecting with like minds, if only for a millisecond ... a word here, a shift of the eyes there ... just enough to make the connection that we are not alone while we wait for the spirit and revelation.
Your brother and friend,
sw
Hey "Dad"!! :clap:
Hows it going matey? :thumbsup:
Thanks for the post! Groups of like minded people form communities - unfortunately, when this happens, "organisation" inevitably comes into the equation - even with good intentions, once a community of like minded believers reaches a "tipping point" in its understanding, dogmatic "truth" begins to hold sway and dominates, then divides those who still "hold true" and those who do not.
And not that we should be push-overs. There are limitless ways of interpreting scripture, and we shouldnt accept anything anyone says, unless we find it congruent to our understanding of scripture -- which in and of itself, can be a sticky matter. We are urged to "test the spirits" and for good reason. Yet even those who disagree with us doctrinally, are still to be found worthy of God's Love. Maybe, thats the point? To show us up on all our weaknesses and to remind us of our connectedness with each other, as we endure and carry on in the battle with our conditoning, the world and its rulers.
Jesus' teachings offer us an insight into the fundamentals of our true nature - a model for us to follow. Perhaps if "organised" Christianity were to pride itself on the model, and not on "true" theology, things might be different.
But then again, I could be wrong...:friends:
Ah, my not so long lost son. You have indeed honed your skills over time and may the Lord of peace continue guiding you constantly. Green grass! What a fine thing to grow in Brooklyn! In the '60's when "Keep off the Grass" signs meant more than lawns :smoker::P, well, what can I say, I still remember the '60's in spite of it.:thumbsup:
:giverose:Just keep giving that little guy every bit of fatherly affection your heart can stand, my bro. One day when we all meet, I will expect a very long hug from every one of you.
:heartbeat:
sw
is there a religion out there untainted? I see none.
I agree.
I believe that the goal of worshipping the Father in spirit and truth, as Jesus said that the true worshippers would accomplish, defines a state of mind and spirit and soul that has to transcend all the trappings of manmade “religionâ€, not join them. Paul the apostle’s words in Hebrews 13 to “go forth to him outside the camp†for me says that the only way to achieve spiritual purity is to have something of a rogue disposition in order to maintain spiritual freeness, to not get caught up in group dynamics. The mechanics of groups start out with every good intention, but in the end go the way of the leader/leadee dynamic.
Jesus exemplified how having humility and deference accomplishes true worship of the Father. The key? To be great, learn to be the least. In its purest form Christianity exists in no particular location or group, as in some physical location like Jerusalem or Samaria, but rather would exist “outside†the confines of manmade organizations with all the baggage that goes along with it: power structures, doctrinal conformity promoted to preserve “unityâ€. I always used to wonder what it meant in Revelation that “these are the ones that follow the Lamb no matter where he goesâ€, and, “no falsehood was found in their mouthsâ€. This can only mean persons that have achieved, as they see it, purity in their faith in that they are internally motivated to worship the Father in spirit and truth - regardless of what anyone else is doing or the pressure put upon them to conform to the groupthink happening in the age they live in. They follow Jesus, in that they see only the Father’s example and are not lead astray by manmade traditions and structures.
This to me is what defines these discussion boards. While no one agrees on all points, all can have a common goal of finding real truth and worshipping the Father – as they see it – in the purest form attainable. Jesus said that no one could get to the Father except through him, so we know that true worship is possible. Motive has to be what they look at – what’s our motive. The correct motive has to be the most important part of our success – our knowledge can be cleared up as we go. And we may have to wait a while for the complete knowledge that Paul spoke of, and so in the meantime the mandate to show love for one another really comes into play. It’s a real challenge to show love and dereference, to conduct oneself as a least one, in the face of ideas and beliefs you may not agree with.
Everything else with come with time.
v r
Dear veritas re,
You are indeed gifted with reason and good sense and contribute much to this board. You are right about each of us on differing levels, and we recognize each other on those levels. Love is the enduring quality that binds us together even when we do not fully comprehend. Endurance is the key, and love is what makes the journey joyful.
:giverose:sw
(bold italics,mine )
There is a third kind of people - those who feel they are already being led by our Lord, led to our Father at the end of the thousand years. Such souls don't look for the mythical one-true religion, don't need to lead or be led by anyone or anything, nor do they need to be told what to believe - all those earthly notions which religion induces as essential for salvation. Instead, they cut out the "middle-man" religion and their hearts follow their heavenly leader. That road isn't lonely, isn't insecure - it has neither worries nor fears over the future, and those on it feel comfortable with the Divine Ones and see them in the good light they deserve. Better?
Psalm 91
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."
3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare
and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
Psalm 23
A psalm of David.
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
:read: :)
Christian Existentialists, secure and enjoying the journey. :friends:
designs
What a great way of putting it! :clap::thumbsup: You too, ol' timer!:thumbup:
So, in a way... doesn't this make religions something of an interloper? Like a man trying to get between a wife and her husband?
They could offer refreshment - as the scriptures recommend, a cup of cool and refreshing water to disciples (Matthew 10:42) as we go on our journey, instead of trying to own us. We already have an owner :). There are plenty of ministers in all faiths who already live by this helpful manner. If religions themselves could be this way, then they would be part of the glorious landscape surrounding Christianity - and that would be not bad at-all for man-made organisations.
Acts5v29
Hi y'all!:wave: I've been reading on a particular commentary site - there's a link on yesterday's Daily Text thread - and when I read this excerpt I thought of this thread. It impressed upon me the purpose of God's calling us out of religion - or at least that's how I felt as I read along. I hope it encourages you all as much as it did me.:ok:
It is easy through familiarity to fail to recognise the stupendous nature of these experiences of Abram. Here was a man, in a family where other gods were prominent, who had established himself semi-independently, and was now experiencing an awe-inspiring theophany which would determine his whole future. The whole of what has gone before has been leading up to this.
We must not have the wrong idea about Abram. He was already a prince of his own family tribe, well-to-do and with many servants (12.5). He would not be going alone, for his family tribe would go with him. But he was called to leave his family and all his ties, for only then could he establish an exclusive community of Yahweh, (the first ‘church’). It required faith - no longer would he enjoy the protection of the larger tribal connections and the place ahead was unknown - and obedience, for the decision lay with him and with him alone. Sometimes much is required of one to whom much will be given.
‘Leave ---- for a land that I will show you’. He is called to venture into the unknown. The way ahead will be revealed to him as he takes the path of obedience. His part is to trust and obey. What a crucial moment this is in his life. It will determine his whole destiny. Indeed it will determine the destiny of the world.
God does not hold back on what is being demanded. It is spelled out clearly. He must leave his land, to which by now he has become tied by a sense of belonging. He must leave his kinsfolk, those whom he knows so well and has relied on so often. He must leave his position in the family hierarchy, his father’s house, those who are most important to him. The thoughts are progressive.
But in return he is promised what every man dreams of. He is to enjoy a new land. He will become ‘a great nation’. He will experience God’s special protection. He is to become ‘a blessing’. Indeed the whole earth will be blessed through what he does, or rather what God does through him. The ideas are in parallel. He must leave a land to receive a land. He must leave kinsfolk in order to become part of a great nation. He must leave his close family so that all the world might become his family. This is God’s covenant. Obey, he is told, and you will receive abundantly and flowing over. And Abram believes and obeys.
It was against all natural common sense. Surely his opportunity to become a great nation lay in inheriting his father’s position over the combined family sub-tribes? But God knows that unless he breaks free he will not be truly free, for always he will be held back by tradition, connections with his father’s gods and responsibility to others. Only when he has fully broken free to become master of his own destiny will he be able to receive and to offer the fullness of blessing. When God chooses a man He strips him of all that could prevent his usefulness. But sometimes we are not willing to let go. Abram was willing to let go.
‘I will make you a great nation’. This thought is prominent in all the promises to Abram. He will have many descendants, and in 17.5-6 (compare 17.20) the promise is expanded to become ‘nations’ (see 13.16; 15.5; 17.5 on; 18.18; 22.17; 26.4, 24; 28.14; 35.11).
‘Make your name great.’ There is a deliberate contrast here with those who went to Babel (11.4). They went out from their family background to make themselves a name, but it ended in miserable failure, for they built what was only temporary, and they brought division to the world which would only result in further misery. Abram will build what is permanent, which will result in blessing. He builds no city but what he builds, a household of faith, will be a blessing to the world. The choice the world always faces is spelled out clearly here. God or mammon? The ‘pleasures of civilisation’ or joy in God? It is where the heart is that really matters.
‘Be a blessing’. The covenant is full of blessing. Blessing for Abram. Blessing for his friends. Blessing for the world. Abram is to be the earthly source of that blessing. He is not given the narrow view of seeking to achieve blessing for himself. He is to seek to be a blessing. And as he does so he will be blessed himself. What a contrast this is with those who sought to build ‘civilisation’ only for their own ends.
‘I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse.’ There is a deliberate contrast between the plural and the singular. His friends will be many, his enemies few. But enemies he will have for he seeks to serve God and this will always result in those who react to such an attitude. But Abram is assured that God will be watching over his relationships and acting accordingly.
12.4 ‘So Abram went as Yahweh had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy five years old when he left Haran.’
Abram obeyed the voice of God. Lot, his nephew also went with him. It is very probable that through Abram’s witness Lot too had begun to worship Yahweh. It is possibly difficult to comprehend what a major step for Abram this move was. To the ancients membership of the tribe was a sacred duty and to leave it was to dismember the tribe. But Abram has the call of Yahweh and his act is therefore a declaration of faith.
Don't you feel so grateful to have been blessed by Abram's faith in his God?! By his obedience to God's call, he established the way for us all to be declared righteous by faith - faith in God's Son.
Just as he stepped away from the familiar and 'safe' place he'd known - so we too are stepping away from a religion we considered safe and placing our well-being directly into God and His Christ's loving, capable hands. That's the ultimate test of trust!
Abram became a blessing for the entire world! Isn't it amazing and wonderful how God worked through him to fulfill His faithful promises? Just as he was blessed and became a blessing, my prayer is that we may all be blessed and respond with that kind of faith :thumbsup:
Love to you all:grouphug:
:heartbeat::peace::heartbeat:
Explaining Christianity is difficult, aye? Or simple?
With Love, Debbie