Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Debbie:hibye:

I think you've hit the point - some things can't be taught, they're meant to be experienced.

Acts5v29

Dear Sis Acts5v29:love:,

Our unique footsteps bear our Christian life. Each of us have our own trials and mess ups.

Sometimes, I would have loved to have stayed a straighter course. I see people that "look" like they are blessed with "glow". We see it sometimes at the KH, where young ones grew up into their parents footsteps. I remember a time when I wished I had been like my younger sister or older brother, who my mom approves. I don't think I would have been a very good Christian that way, though. I was a very smart child (and I got dumber as I grew up:redface:) and in first grade I had a group of children to teach while the teacher worked with another group. (I had already gone through my workbooks, so I became the helper and got to leave classes to read to Kindergarten children, I really had it made in the smarts department and ending up dropping out of school, told you I got dumber:whistle:) Well, anyways, I was kinda bossy and mean, a little Miss Know It All.

Years, later and lots of heartache, pain, and a heavy load. You know, the "experience" you were mentioning? I think of my first grade self. Jehovah and Jesus can bring anyone down low to the ground. And, now, I feel sad about that haughty feeling. So, as strange as it may be to be a grave sinner like I have been, it made me a better person. I honestly think I would have become haughtier if I didn't get "knocked" around in life. I can still be mean and bossy, sometimes. LOL

Isn't it interesting how YHWH showed favor to imperfect people? Churches have it all wrong about trying to be "perfect" or living up to the ideals that the Church imposes. Its hurtful. (Reminds me a bit of Iso's inclusive and exclusive thread.) Someone has to fit the square peg of a sect's or cult's doctorines in order to be "included". The scriptures after the gospels really get "mucked up" to the advantage of persons in authority. Forgetting that "all things are lawful, but not all things are advantageous". If we love one another, someone else's mistakes shouldn't be judges as "going to hell" or in need of "shunning". People making mistakes need love and attention, and sometimes they need to be left alone for awhile, but encouraging them to realize they are only an arms reach away. We can always drop by a card or groceries or do something. Love conquers all, eventually. :heartbeat:


With Love and Hugs, Debbie

:ok:

:heartbeat:
jesh

Hi ol' timer!!
Pray for me that I might loose those chains. My familly entanglement makes it difficult. What would it benefit me if I left with my children in bondage, and they estranged from me?

Good soul, you've got my prayers. All sheep belong to our Lord - it's only the thieves and plunderers who corrall them as religions for their own property - but all sheep really belong to our Lord. Wherever you or your family are, your shepherd see fine hearts wherever they are.

Prayers for our beloved Father's continued care and support of you brother,


Acts5v29

Amen to that!:pray:

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

I am truly sorry for your dilemma my brother... my heart goes out to you ... I understand your sufferings and reasons for staying shackled.
The WT is certainly infamous for dividing and alienating family members from one another in more ways than one.
You do what you have to do ... but take courage, for all those that suffer for the Christ will be more than recompensed.

Hebrews 6:10

God does what is right.
He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for him.

your friend and brother,always

Hi e-m. I can truly empathize. Hang in there. Your endurance is my stamina

Affection :giverose:

sw

The Blessing of Baptism Helps Us Serve with Love and not Guilt

What is the greatest destroyer of faith? That which destroys the spirit. And what destroys the spirit? Guilt. Why? Because guilt inhibits love. It kills its joy and peace. With guilt we have no patience and show little kindness, goodness or mildness and self-control.

Guilt comes to us twofold—in double condemnation. We inherit it and we create it when we violate our already innately violated conscience inherited from Adam.

The Law in Israel did nothing to rid the Jews of guilt. If anything, it enhanced it since the law made sins even more manifest, (Galatians 3:19) so that guilt is really the evidence of sin and a conscience riddled with guilt. And what is the only remedy for such compounded guilt?

Well, what kind of Christian are you? Are you driven by the spirit, the fruitage of which is fostered by love? Or are you driven by guilt? Look! I tell you a sacred secret. There is only one way to be rid of guilt. Here it is:

When Peter wrote his first letter, he spoke of Christ providing us both sacrifice and model to follow his steps closely (1 Peter 2:21). More specifically, “That which corresponds to this is also now saving you, namely, baptism, not in purifying the flesh, but the request made to God for a good conscience.” (1 Peter 3:21)

In a nutshell, there is nothing said of any formal dedication to God, no guilt trip imposed by those who’s object is to promise the purification of our souls. And since we of ourselves are unable to salve our conscience violated from birth, it is only Christ who comes to save and forgive so that we can “Hold a good conscience,” as he earlier admonished, “so that in the particular in which you are spoken against they may get ashamed who are speaking slightingly of your good conduct in connection with Christ.” (1 Peter 3:16)

So in just a few short chapters Peter gives us all of the encouragement necessary. If our baptism is truly valid, then it will validate us through our request to God that it might be good. We will thus become Christians driven by the love of Christ instead of the guilt of a sin band-aided by a dedication nowhere Biblically connected to baptism, a dedication imposed by those who would bind us to a mediator other than Christ.

Our Heavenly Father's whole aim is for us to grow! He knows how destructive - quite literally! - guilt can be, what a terrible waste it is! and how it makes us pull away from Him into a corner to hide. The adversary must be delighted with guilt - convincing us that God no longer loves us, that we're not good enough :thumbsdown:, that we'll be spiritually shouted at if we dare to approach Him :fear: - oh yes, a horrid destroyer of faith, guilt is a great device for the adversary!

Having regrets and being contrite is good and helps those we've upset trust us again, but guilt is a destroyer. Far better for us to turn with sincerity to Him, a heartfelt smile of gratitude on our faces that we have Him to turn to, and just like Paul with his "thorn in the flesh" be carried forward in our recovery on our Lord's strength and not our own.

Isn't it so good to know we don't need to rely on ourselves! :thumbsup:

Acts5v29

Paul the apostle’s words in Hebrews 13 to “go forth to him outside the camp” for me says that the only way to achieve spiritual purity is to have something of a rogue disposition in order to maintain spiritual freeness, to not get caught up in group dynamics. The mechanics of groups start out with every good intention, but in the end go the way of the leader/leadee dynamic.



Hi vr and all,
This is very well put. I often think of myself as a maverick Christian. I would definitely be viewed by many as a rogue Christian. The process of destructive group dynamics never seems to end. We haven't found a way to function without hierarchical organisation. The off-shoots of every religion do it, nowadays it is done on the internet too. Different name, different venue, same MO. Even the rogues or mavericks, when they meet, quickly conform to the same tired old structure. If you or anyone else has an idea for a better approach, I 'd love to hear it!
Brendan.

OK love is the answer to this.

Bono:

"....Stop asking God to bless what you're doing. Get involved in what God is doing -- because it's already blessed."

To do this necessarily involves getting involved, and that means people, and that means groups, and that means group dynamics. The biblical answer is not to leave such a group as soon as things get difficult.

1Pe 4:11 If anyone has anything to say, let it be as the words of God; if anyone has the desire to be the servant of others, let him do it in the strength which is given by God; so that in all things God may have the glory through Jesus Christ, whose are the glory and the power for ever.
1Pe 4:12 Dear brothers, do not be surprised, as if it was something strange, if your faith is tested as by fire:
1Pe 4:13 But be glad that you are given a part in the pains of Christ; so that at the revelation of his glory you may have great joy.
1Pe 4:14 If men say evil things of you because of the name of Christ, happy are you; for the Spirit of glory and of God is resting on you.

Christ said that his followers would do works greater than he. How can that be? It can only be if one is part of a group. When groups of Christians get together to feed the hungry they often exceed the feeding of five thousand as Christ did. The organization of `doctors without border` heal far more than Christ could as a human man. The list goes on and on.

The very first thing that Christ did after he started his mission at baptism was to gather a group of twelve followers. That group was his family unit and that group got bigger and bigger from there. The scriptural principle that those who have been given much, then much will be demanded, makes no sense if we are dwelling in the wilderness on our own. The disciples were given much, and then shared.

Heb 10:24 and may we consider one another to provoke to love and to good works,
Heb 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as a custom of certain is , but exhorting, and so much the more as ye see the day coming nigh.

Provoke is an interesting word here. The 12 apostles were comprised of individuals with many different opinions. Simon was a zealot. Mathew though was a tax collector. Simon would have had a fundamentally different approach to religion and politics than Mathew. Then the distinction between religion and politics did not exist. Mathew would have been seen by Simon as a traitor to Jewish faith, culture, values, and law due to working for the Romans. Simon being a zealot would have been part of a group akin to Muslim fundamentalist insurgents in what they see as occupied territory.

uk 6:13 And when it became day, He summoned His disciples, and having chosen from them twelve, whom also He named apostles:
Luk 6:14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
Luk 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Simon, the one being called [the] Zealot,
Luk 6:16 Judas [the son; or, the brother] of James, and Judas Iscariot, who also became a traitor.

Yet in Christ love is what united them. They would still of had differences. They were always arguing about who was the greatest among them while Christ was alive. They had differences of opinion. The group dynamics were often destructive because they had not been perfected yet. The answer was not to leave.

There is a big question that arises from all this, if strife, immaturity and conflict are not sufficient reasons to leave a group of Christs followers, or followers of Christ. When is it appropriate to leave a Christian denomination or group? The apostles were far from being followers of Christ even though they were Christs followers for years before they reached a state of spiritual maturity to move beyond trifles.

Its a complex question but Jesus gives a clue.

Mat 7:15 "But be watching out for the false prophets, who come to you* in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 "By their fruits you* will know them. They do not gather a grape cluster from thorns, or figs from thistles, do they?
Mat 7:17 "In the same way, every good tree yields good fruits, but the rotten tree yields evil fruits.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree is not able to be yielding evil fruits, nor a rotten tree to be yielding good fruits.
Mat 7:19 "Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is thrown into fire.
Mat 7:20 "Consequently, by their fruits you* will know them.

Jesus tells us the categorical test for determining false prophets and teachers. Its the fruit. Is it good fruit or bad. No one can tell if tree is good or bad until they wait and see. Or wait and watch. They have to wait for the fruit season to arrive in order to tell what fruit it is. Good or bad. Jesus also said along the same lines that `wisdom is proved righteous by its works`. Its the same principle. Its not really a doctrinal test but only as much as it affects the fruits of love. So differing opinions don`t matter unless they limit or suppress love. What are the fruits to look out for.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Again this is not a doctrinal test, its not a problem to have differing opinions of things as long as love is the bond of union; its a love test. There are many who can imitate correct doctrine and knowledge and even miracles of casting out demons and healing. These things are easy to imitate.

Mat 7:20 So you'll recognize them by their fruit.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!'

So it would seem to be appropriate to leave a group of Christians if its group dynamic limits or stifles love. If it hasn't got good fruit. If it harms people emotionally or physically for instance. It wont always be possible to know this just by looking. That is why patience is a fruit of the spirit. We don`t quickly judge but wait and see what the fruit is, when the season shows up the ripened fruit of the tree. This can give us a measure of peace which is another fruit of the spirit. Long suffering as well. Christ didn't give up on his group, but he did on Judas when his fruit became apparent.

Another thing about the fruits of the spirit is that one cant apply them in isolation. Kindness needs others to be kind to. The same with gentleness. Patience is a must within a group dynamic along with long suffering. The most important one of course is love. That cannot be practiced well in the wilderness. Following Christ cannot be done well in the wilderness. When Christ symbolized the time the Jews spent in the wilderness he used it as a time to renew and pray for the mission ahead. So if we are in the wilderness it should be viewed as a preparation time only before we start out journey back into Christian community. Christ was also tempted by the devil in the wilderness just as the Jews were. Those Jews died there but Jesus didn't because of relying on his father. He was tempted though. We are much more likely to be tempted on out own without other sisters and brothers to watch over, or care for us. A lion seeking to devour a victim will often choose the week animal on its own. We don`t want to weaken ourselves in that way. We need each other.

In the book of Revelation the congregations are described as a group spirit/angel. A collective entity with its own personality and group dynamic. This is why the letters to the seven congregations is addressed to each congregations angel. This spirit of any congregation is not going to be all good or all bad but a mix or both, in ourselves and out own spirit and as a collective. This view of organizations and groups, or denominations or political structures ect is very instructive. The collective spirit can be prayed for. Sometimes though the only thing to do is to cast that spirit out. We might have to leave but not without great care and the fruits of the spirit.

Love is the answer, and this idea is sometimes to simple for people to be able to except. Its like the question to the meaning of life the universe and everything! To say its love sounds allot like 42. Some cant understand it. They need a complex equation or something like that to be the answer. To understand the answer me must understand the question. The answer functions and is true but love only makes sense if we understand the environment of it. To do that we must apply love to that environment. Then we will have both the answer to the big question and be able to understand that question.