Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I think I had better start a new thread as this topic might be a very large one and might end up totally hijacking Wicks topic, although it is the flip side and therefore complementary to the subject he started.

vicky

See
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...936&page=1 for parallel topic.

[moved from the other thread]
One such mistaken use of 'Jehovah' instead of 'Lord' that actually prodded me to ditch the NWT is in Romans 10. (just for context's sake, here is the end of Romans chapter 9 that shows Paul is talking about the Jews stumbling over Christ Jesus being "Lord of all" ---

NASB - Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

The NWT has inserted "Jehovah" in verse 13 where it is translated from "kurios" to "Lord" - even in the Kingdom Interlinear. Now, I understand that this is a quote from Joel 2:32, and so the WT Bible committee thought it proper to 'restore' God's name here - BUT - it detracts from the over-all context and intention of these chapters of Romans and from the precise point Paul is making - that Christ Jesus has fulfilled this prophecy among many. He has been talking all along about how he, not Jehovah but Christ Jesus, was being preached and believed in - his is the name that saves - Jesus is Lord!

It's the exact same point Peter made in Acts 2 -
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
19 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
20 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25 "For David says of Him,
'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;
FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26 'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;
MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,
NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;
YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

And so... I was taught that it is the name 'Jehovah' that one must know and preach to be saved... but that is not really what the Word says, no, not at all. There is one name by which we are saved, as Peter emphasizes at Acts 4 -
10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this name this man stands here before you in good health.
11 "He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." [all italics mine]

That made me so angry when I first realized it - but now I see it's only one of many WT 'mistakes'... now that I'm thinking on it again - it still makes me really mad! Everytime I read Romans 10 it's like a burr under my tail when I remember... It just underlines again their need to diminish Christ Jesus at all costs - and the greatest cost is to those who are misled by their deception. :(

:heartbeat:

That my friends is why you wont find Jehovah in the New Testament, not because of some conspiracy.

As if God couldnt preserve His name if it was in the original Greek New Testament manuscripts, like he did in the Hebrew Old Testament, which the Society RIGHTLY added back in.

Those who still use Jehovah are stuck on the Old Testament if you ask me. But then again no one did. :D

Matt 4:
4 But in reply he (Jesus said), ''It is written, 'Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.'''
Interlinear
στόματος Θεού
stoma....theos
MOUTH..of God.

And yet Jesus' parents were told to name him thus.
He is the epitome of 'Jehovah is Salvation', as in Isaiah 61.
Many things in the Bible are not done away with, but are built upon.

Matthew 22:44 makes no sense without the word 'Jehovah', no more than the original psalm 110. "The LORD said unto my Lord".
All I can say is, "lordy lordy what's all this about?"

Dear Man Hu,:love:

Are you saying that this sentence is supposed to say Jesus's mouth?

Thanks, Debbie

No I am not, but I do not like any additions, or alterations, even though we recognise that the God here is Jehovah.
Why change a title to a name?

vicky

Because the translator wanted to clarify the point of it being God instead of Jesus?

I guess I look at the translators as fallible humans, too. Maybe the translator was overjoyed with recognizing the difference and having love for the name, that he went Jehovah happy.

Seems innocent enough to me.

See how varied we are? I find all of our differences as reasons to communicate and enjoy our different perceptions. I want to know why God picked all of us and why he picks other people.

Some want to separate right and wrong I think its hopeless to decide 'right' and 'wrong' and 'dead' or 'alive' assignment to individuals based upon our faiths, beliefs, and perceptions.

I do respect your belief that the translator should have left it in its 'original' form. If even that were original? LOL.

Hope you are well. How's your house guest?

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

Are you sure God's name was never used in the NT?

Weird. Seems like a foreign thought to me.:confused:

Man Hu, is this true? Or anyone else?

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

Mark 5
18 Now as he was boarding the boat, the [man] that had been demon-possessed began entreating him that he might continue with him. 19 However, he did not let him, but said to him: “Go home to your relatives, and report to them all the things Jehovah has done for you and the mercy he had on you.” 20 And he went away and started to proclaim in the De·cap´o·lis all the things Jesus did for him, and all the people began to wonder.

Verse 19 of course reads 'the Lord' 'o kurios.

Then in verse 20, the previously demon possessed man, out of gratitude, goes off to the Decapolis (ten cities) and tells them all the things Jesus did for him.

We cannot prove definitively that Jehovah's name was used in the NT, though it seems strange that direct quotes from the Septuagint (Old Testament in Greek) where it was used, should suddenly lose the name. This was not lost in translation, as both were in Greek and as such it appears most quotes in the NT were directly from the OT Greek.
The theophoric names that occur in the NT still contain the abbreviated name of Jehovah, and make no sense without the meaning of Jehovah.
E.g. Jehoshua (Jesus), Elijah, Jehohanan (John).
Hallelujah would also be meaningless.

The name Jehovah is NOT FOUND in any New Testament manuscripts. Even the Society admits that.

And when the bible writers quoted from the Old Testament they used the Septuagint, a GREEK translation of the Old Testament and NO the name Jehovah wasnt there either.

Sorry but that is FACT regardless of how you guys want to spin it.

Are you saying the pictures of the Septuagint where the pieces of manuscript contain the divine name have been falsified?
Now this would be newsworthy.

:blush: You are right! Thanks for setting me straight.

I was going off Jason BeDuhn's book "Truth in Translation". I will have to email him to see what he has to say. :readthis:

:drinking:

Cheers Yannis.
Some here are derring-do preachers, but the majority here are pure God seekers. You are obviously one.

vicky