Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

When reading why some object to the use of ‘Jehovah’ when uttering the divine name, I wonder. I’ve tried uttering YHWH but nobody ever understands what I’m talking about. I even tried יְהֹוָה, but couldn’t get my mouth form one good Yiddish consonant.

I suppose that merely uttering the name ‘Jehovah’ stirs a discomfort in some. In others who vehemently protest that it insults God, well I suppose we are insulting Yehoshua by shortening his name to Yeshua or worse—uttering his name in Greek, i.e., “Jesus.” Maybe it would be better to uttering his name in consonants as well.

So work with me on this. Just why are we so fussy with all this pronunciation dribble. When was the last time you tried to get all those mispronounced Jewish “J” words back to “Y” words or even “I” words. Because that is what they were. Yet if we are to be consistent with the argument of not uttering the incorrect pronunciation of YHWH, I would think we should get the Son’s name right too. After all, does not the scripture say “that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground?” and “there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved?“ (Acts 4:12; Philippians 2:10)

And if we start preaching Yehoshua, would we then be Yehoshuans and not Christians? You see, I’m really beginning to wonder as to the motives we have for becoming so picky in one context while disregarding another. We become sticklers over mispronouncing the most prolific name in Scripture yet have no compunction to mispronounce every other Biblical name. Does this not border on silliness?

Or is it another motive entirely? You see, I go a step further. I blame those scholars who go to such great lengths and take such great exception to pronunciation that they resort to title substitution, i.e.—Lord and God for Jehovah. What is the real reason? What is their true motive? And just why was the name put there to begin with? Was it by man’s will or God’s? And by whose will was it taken away? Man’s or God’s? While I fear God, do I fear to ask men?

I really have to wonder when it comes to the Christian Greek scriptures (NT). For example, at what point did the divine name cease to exist there? Was it superstition? I wonder. For example, when Jesus said: “You must love the Lord your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind,” was he not quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 that says: “And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force?”

Now I’m no scholar, and neither am I a great linguist or historian, but when I read of Jesus courage to turn over money changers in the temple and call the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, triggering his own execution, was he really afraid to utter the divine name in whatever language?

Then I read all the excuses made by all those scholarly linguists, theologians and historians and their reasons that the name should cease to exist in the OT or that it never existed in the NT or that it should simply be ignored just because it is mispronounced, not only is the argument too thin to stretch in my own brain (which only gives me a bigger headache) but it really makes me suspect that their reasonings are more doctrinally driven than they honestly admit.

sw

Jesus was multilingual.
Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin.
He played with words and names in several languages*.

I suspect his father has the same cross linguistic humour.

If we try to be poncey and pronounce a word in its original language, which we don't know and cannot pronounce, they will have a laugh.
If we use some 'bastardised' modern pronunciation, they will also have a laugh.
Plenty of jokes in heaven, no doubt. Check out the etymology of 'Los Testigos' de Jehova.

When a baby first calls its father didi, dada or doodoo, the parent doesn't mind about the pronunciation, because it is the recognition of the child for his parent that has warmed his heart.
The same applies to our heavenly father, no matter how we mispronounce.


*Petros, camelon etc.

Being Greek, i learned to call my father baba. I have never called him by his name.

It is interesting that Jesus, in treaching us how to pray didnt say pray this way "Our Jehovah, or Yahweh" but "Our FATHER".

I was cooking in a Greek household where women take cooking seriously, as they believe their reputation relies on it. Baba Ben's was the hot topic, until I realised they were talking rice and the merit of Uncle Ben's.

Tell me about it. Cooking is a BIG part of the culture. Ever seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding? All true. :hibye:

I had a feeling someone would spray Windex on this thread :whistle:

ps. Oh and btw, I wasn't talking about Jesus usage of the divine name in prayer.

My mid teens to early twenties were spent with Greek witness families.
If you want to upset a Greek suggest another way of cooking something.

As in 'My Big Fat', I learned that every cooking method was first devised by the Greeks and that all names for everything came from Greek.
I had to listen to how cooking over hot coals, hot rocks in the ground and burial for slow cooking of meat, wrapping things in leaves, wrapping things in leaves and then the hot rocks together, was all invented by the Greeks. Although native South Americans were also doing this when the conquistadors arrived didn't matter, because the Greeks had invented it first.

I hope you have watched Shirley Valentine and the jacuzzi scene, 'whilst the Britons were plowing up the earth the a.... bone of a giraffe'.....

.........................................................

Back to subject.

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus was talking to Jews, and could not have mentioned the name of Yahweh, Jehovah, IEh oUAh, or any other pronunciation, without losing their interest or being stoned.
Praying to our father is absolutely the correct way, but it is beneficial to 'know' His name (or one of them), and sanctify it.

If the name Yahweh/Jehovah were irrelevent, it would not create such an emotional reaction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeq2Utm0nU

ps I like baba, abba (not the group) daddy/dad as an address. What a priviledge to address the God of the universe that way?
Direct, no intermediaries, no intercession, high priests, or sacrifices of bulls!
We can now call direct via the Jesus hotline.

Vicky

Re:

Monty Python's - Life of Brian-5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeq2Utm0nU

Thanks for the laugh.

It seems some adherents of religions would view this skit as especially inappropriate/distasteful/blasphemy. Too much "sacredness" given a name or annunciation of it, distracts from worship of YHVH (oops).....Jehovah, in spirit and truth by means of our Lord...Jesus.

(OK, who will be the first to whistle?....grin)

:whistle::whistle::whistle:

Christian love, (with a grin...)

gogh

Perhaps the first lesson to us non-Greeks is that Windex solves everything—and trying to tell them otherwise only inflames their passion to declare that Greeks had changed the thinking world that today turns on a Greek axis. (Sorry Yannis but I also watched MBFGW and enjoyed it almost as much as Monty Python.) But then the British also have a saying: “There are two kinds of people in this world—those who are British and the rest who want to be.”

Back to the subject. Perhaps some missed the point. It wasn’t about how we should address the God we worship. It was about whether it was justified to expunge entirely the most prolifically rooted name in the original manuscripts under the guise of mispronunciation (caused primarily by superstition) as so many translators have done.

Having sorted through my own flaws (after having stopped being incensed by the flaws of others), I suppose I am about to confess something we should all believe about ourselves and question. Maybe I hope by my own confession that others might also become more introspective concerning how even the greatest minds among us can distort reasoning by not confessing their own introspective failings to themselves.

Example. I got pulled over by the cops and ticketed for being so unfortunate as being at the wrong place at the wrong time. It was a police sting—entrapment I later surmised, and so began to devise other reasons as to my innocence. When it came time for my defence, my entire premise had changed and so I felt justified to raise arguments that favoured my innocence even though I knew introspectively I was just as guilty as everyone else who dutifully paid their fines.

Now I’m not against defending ones rights or the innocence of others, but I really have to think about whether my motives remained pure since, whether the punishment fit the crime or not, the arguments I later conjured only fed a rationale to justify and not correct my own erroneous belief.

Am I alone in this? Or do others ever rethink their strongly entrenched beliefs? So I’m really beginning to wonder whether the divine name has been sufficiently bastardized to justify its departure. The fact is, at one time it was pronounceable and the only commandment against its use was: “You must not take up the name of YHWH in a worthless way.”

But then I learned a long time ago you can feed people truisms all day long but they will end up defending their belief even the death—the more intense the argument, the more desperate their defence. Hence, by my merely raising this subject, the ire of some sends pricklies down the back of my head. Is anyone getting my drift?

Well, Bro Wick - I know you don't mind me calling you that even though it's not really your name, lol!

This has always been something of a thorn in my side - the not knowing and not being able to even find the truth of it. It's so very hard to believe that the ancient Jewish scribes actually 'lost' the real spelling and pronunciation of the divine Name from fear of misuse. I think they tried to hide it... I don't know why I think that - it's rather suspicious of me, isn't it?

The thing that bothers me most about the name "Jehovah" is that the wtbts has over-taught that it is the ONLY right pronunciation of God's name - even though their own publications have stated that "Yahweh" is probably a closer pronunciation of the tetragramaton YHWH... go figure... That, and they promote that Name as being uttered long long before the letter 'j' was even invented, which I think is quite disingenuous to promote their religion as the only 'true' one - because "see, only WE use God's REAL name!" :headbang: But... when I'm around people who are used to using the Name 'Jehovah', I use it; likewise for the Name Yahweh, or the simple title of 'God'... when in Rome...

I think there must come a time in our spiritual maturing, maybe especially for exJehovah's Witnesses, that we start thinking of our God in a fatherly sense and use the name 'Father' from the heart of a child - not as a title anymore, but because it has finally dawned on us that we truly are His child and He truly is our Father who loves us. It's whole other thing from when we only feared Him, knowing how unworthy we surely must be of His care and love. Finally coming to know Yehoshua changed all that - through his eyes we see the Father, and likewise through his eyes the Father sees us!

So... I think this is something that is yet to be revealed, after such a long time being hidden from us. For now it is sufficient for me to think of the God and Father of Yehoshua as my God and Father too - as he taught his own disciples to pray. That, imho, was the biggest part of his ministry - to show YHVH as a God of love, as he knew Him intimately; to reach out to those who so needed to know it, who formerly, like us, had only known a dread fear because of their human iniquity(as taught by their religion). Yes, Yehoshua changed all that forever as he taught us how surpassingly large is the love of his Father, he also taught us that through him we now have the glorious freedom to love our Father the way He has always wanted His children to do! :heartbeat: Worship Him - love Him - in the spirit and truth that are uniquely our own to give. :heartbeat:

I no longer think it matters if it has been changed or wrongly transliterated or tampered with - I think what is there is sufficient for us to learn what's most important for our lives in the present. I've gained peace about it by coming to know the Almighty God as my own heavenly Father. I don't worry about what excuses the scholars have come up with - like you said, they are driven by something - usually a desire to prove their chosen indoctrination correct above all logic or sense. I too used to be quite driven to 'be right' no matter what kind of logic proved me wrong! lol! To 'be right' just doesn't seem to have a hold on me anymore - I think it's a good and freeing thing to admit "I just don't know - but God does!" So - I'm convinced we will know one fine day - but for now, we have aplenty, don't you think?

Lots of love to you:friends:
:peace:

Ok - well, I guess I missed your point too, having written the above before you posted this. No, I don't think it was right for anyone to obliterate God's Name from manuscripts for whatever reason. :readthis:Not justified. Bad, bad men!:angry:

But it's a done deal and we may not know the real truth of it in this life... especially with all the evidence conveniently destroyed centuries ago.... or was it? :paranoid: Honestly, I find it impossible to believe anyone anymore who says they know the real truth about anything!;)

Jah, Yah, Yes, as long as the beginning of my prayers start with a "yes" sound, I'm pretty optomistic!

You don't know how much time I'm spent thinking about my breathing and the name of our God on every man's breath, it's Isomam's fault!:love::giverose:

I do get confused with accepting other versions because it's easier to start getting Jehovah and Jesus mixed up. In that way, others can make me stumble concerning them and their motives. I try not to "over pick".

Another fear is the New Age using the "newer" versions and putting the "Y" name versions with the demon Matoya name or however its spelled. It seems to be a "name trap".

Some people stumble over seeing "other" versions of Gods name and feel "cheated" that God didn't leave the purity of the name with us. (That's why I'm banking on Bro. Iso's explanation. Its a faith kind of thing:giverose:). Individuals have complained that if God couldn't preserve his own name then we cannot trust anything else about scriptures. There are some thing that we shouldn't trust about scriptures, leaning upon our own understanding:D.

JW's have, unfortunately, made the name Jehovah as a name of cult god. But, hey, we can blame it on the monks! By proclaiming God's name and "killing" off their own in God's name, they have ruined something that could have been held as holy. But, God cannot do anything unholy, so.... They are not the only religions that's done so much harm in the name of God, either. However, our upbringing or paths in life.

I do feel that as a former JW. The name Jehovah was held in such a superstitious light. My last bible study teacher even went to the length of saying how nothing called be named "Jehovah", someone named a goat the name and it died. So she was definitely giving a "power" to the name, Jehovah.

After leaving the WTBTS, I think the name of God is a crisis of faith. If we don't know Gods name then how do we know we are following the right God? My heart breaks for all those who will feel the 'sting' of the reality, but I pray the pain is short. I believe Gods name is on our forehead and our hearts, however our version is. When the time comes and for some, now. The song will come and Gods name will clearly be on our lips!

Until then, when I am anxious and/or going to sleep on Jehovah's robe; I pay attention to my breath. The pysch that tried to have me work on a breathing exercise would have been better off giving Iso's version, instead of 'blowing out the candle'. LOL! I was an active Witness during that psych session. That congregation was pro counseling. I also had the most soft spoken elderly lady who was a real life doll for my study teacher! I loved her!

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

"Maybe those clouds will cheer up and put on that Windex shine:whistle:"

In the middle ages, the Divine Name was used in spells - partly because it's pronunciation was outlawed. You can imagine how powerful a cauldron-stirrer :wizard: must surely be if they were willing to take your three farthings, drop in a few frogs legs and dare to use "the Name" in a spell - "why didn't they fall down dead??? :shocked: must be a powerful wizard, well worth the money". I think that's where the phrase: "There's a name to conjour with" came from, but I might be wrong.

We may not have the wizards now (I hope not) but the awe-inspired audience is still there - didn't the Catholic church recently ban the use of the Divine Name?

I doubt it was ever much to do with respect - it was wizards and churches and rabbis exercising their authority.

Acts5v29

Greetings....a few thoughts:

Is it not understood (by Jehovah's Witness's) that Jehovah acknowledges/appreciates efforts put forth in the ministry, even when no one is contacted (no placements/no one home)?....Because people (and angels) recognize Jehovah's Witness ( in the door to door ministry), therefore say in their mind...Jehovah, thus a "witness" is given as people (supposedly) reflect on God's name?

It is these types of things that have caused me to take care in how, when and where I use God's personal name.

Yes, what a soothing thought....at least time spent in the ministry this (Saturday) morning was worthwhile...a witness was given...as the effort did not go unnoticed by passersby (at least one shaking his fist and gesturing), angels and Jehovah who is welled pleased with the effort put forth in promoting His channel of Holy Spirit. Yes, many have been given (this morning) a chance to recognize and accept the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses as the means of salvation Jehovah is using at this time of the end....life is good. Also didn't we get to smile at a few people? Now they Know we are nice people and we really have The Truth.....life is good. Where do we go for lunch? Wendy's or MacDonalds? Isn't there a baseball game on this afternoon? Is congregation hockey still a go for tonight? How am I going to get back at that dog that almost bit me?......

.02,

:bubblegum:

gogh

Where did you go, bro. Wick? Are you frustrated because no one gets your point? If so, then explain more, OK?

I don't care if you or anyone else uses 'Jehovah' for God's name - my 'ire' does not get up. Not any more, I guess I should say. I'm over that. I sense that you're not exactly talking to us, the people on the board, but about someone else? You've really lost me... Does it frustrate you when others do not use the name Jehovah and instead prefer Yahweh or YHVH? Especially since none of us really know for certain how exactly the divine name should be pronounced?

All I know is...(not much, but I'm honest about that at least!)... if we were Jewish we'd have no problems pronouncing those Hebrew names without the help of one 'j' sound. But we're not Jewish so we improvise, I guess. God nor Jesus will reject us if we haven't ever had the opportunity to know and understand the truth about their names - and how they would like to hear them said. I think real the importance lies in knowing our Shepherd's voice and him knowing our names - don't you think?

So I guess at this time we are free to choose and use the names we feel most comfortable with. I know of and have seen 'The Church of Yahweh' - so not everyone would be in the dark if you say that outloud... likewise, your peers here understand no matter which way you wish to write or pronounce the names.

I don't think that I, in particular, am being a stickler - because I'm innocent of the knowledge of what the true pronunciations are - we are all innocent in that regard. I reckon my 'motive' is ignorance! I tend to write what I'm feeling and take into consideration to whom I'm speaking - so I use Yehoshua, Ye'shua, or Jesus interchangeably. Maybe that's not 'proper' depending on one's point of view... but I kind of feel that they are interchangeable, since we don't know... But the fact remains that we are Christians because Yehoshua/Ye'shua/Jesus was/is the CHRIST - the Messiah - God's Chosen One, the ANOINTED, which is what 'Christ' means. Being 'anointed' with God's holy spirit really makes us all 'little christs', and thus, truly 'Christians'. That's my take on it anyhow...;) And if you'd ever heard me read Bible names and places - you'd know I'm not at all prejudice - I mispronounce them ALL! (At least on the first try! hehe)

I think I'm still missing why you're flustered - please explain more, OK? OK!
:peace:

There is something unsettling about the Society's teaching that one should be proud to 'carry' God's name...."Be proud to be known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses". They teach the name is a safeguard....etc....(as though using the name can have 'protective' power).

I wonder if other religions that use the name Jehovah, also look to it as having 'saving' power?

:bubblegum: