I am going to try to write this without using that
covenant word too much.
We had a good discussion (eventually) in the thinktank last night and I tried to take some notes.
It was based on John 10.
Verses 1-18
1 “Most truly I say to YOU, He that does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs up some other place, that one is a thief and a plunderer. 2 But he that enters through the door is shepherd of the sheep. 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has got all his own out, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will by no means follow but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.â€
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6 Jesus spoke this comparison to them; but they did not know what the things meant that he was speaking to them.
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7 Therefore Jesus said again: “Most truly I say to YOU, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All those that have come in place of me are thieves and plunderers; but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage. 10 The thief does not come unless it is to steal and slay and destroy. I have come that they might have life and might have it in abundance. 11 I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep. 12 The hired man, who is no shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees—and the wolf snatches them and scatters them— 13 because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep. 14 I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.
16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. 17 This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my soul, in order that I may receive it again. 18 No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. The commandment on this I received from my Father.†NWT.
In the first five verses Jesus is talking about a courtyard or pen.
It was a place where sheep were often kept, so is frequently translated as a sheep fold. In villages these courtyards or pens usually made up part of a house.
At dusk the shepherds would bring in their flocks and leave them in the safe keeping of the gate keeper, who is usually the courtyard owner. The sheep from several shepherds, hence several flocks are herded into the enclosure, they are compact, warm and safe, and the gatekeeper usually undertakes to guard the sheep himself, whilst the shepherds get some rest.
The shepherds would pay the gatekeeper for his courtyard and he obviously knew them. He would also be alert to scoundrels climbing over the high stone walls. The top of which would be surmounted by a crown of thorns and thorn bushes (first century rasor wire).
In the morning, the shepherds would return and the gatekeeper recognising his customer and friend would open the gate.
Instead of the shepherd wading in there, and pulling his sheep out, he would call them by their pet name and they would come out. He knew all their names and he would call each one out by name (big nose, black face, bent ear, whatever {in Aramaic of course}). My father came from a farming family, but rose to be an industrial managing director. Nevertheless he always called me 'pet lamb'. A hand reared lamb will always recognise its human 'parent'.
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So verses 1 to 5 are describing the gatekeeper who is probably John the baptist.
Read Matt. 3 and what he said to the Pharisees and Sadducees. He said that Jesus would baptise them with 'holy wind, breath or spirit' and also with fire.
During wheat threshing, the husks were beaten off from the kernels of wheat, the doors at the opposite ends of the threshing floor were opened and then during winnowing the husks would be blown away. Often a fire was lit in the path of these airborn husks, so they were not scattered everywhere but instead cleaned up.
Matthew 3
1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de´a, 2 saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.†5 Then Jerusalem and all Ju·de´a and all the country around the Jordan made their way out to him, 6 and people were baptized by him in the Jordan River, openly confessing their sins.
7 When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “YOU offspring of vipers, who has intimated to YOU to flee from the coming wrath? 8 So then produce fruit that befits repentance; 10 Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.â€
Bit of a fire brand was our John the Baptist. Wouldn't want to be caught climbing over walls and sheep rustling by him.
After much research I think
John the Baptist is the
gatekeeper.
In John 10:6 we realise that Jesus' parables are not going very far, so in verse 7 he starts again on a different tack.
When talking to the Samaritan woman at the well he did this many times, till he had to be blunt. "You have been with five different men and the one you are with at the moment is not your husband".
Wells and water of life did not make it for her!
So here in John 10:7 Jesus is using a slightly different illustration. He is now the door and the shepherd who lays down his life inside the doorway of the pen for his sheep.
The question is, is the symbolism of the pen significant?
Well we discussed the C word, Covenants, and the WT has variously said the pen is the mosaic law covenant and the abrahamic covenant.
7 Therefore Jesus said again: “Most truly I say to YOU, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All those that have come in place of me are thieves and plunderers; but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage. 10 The thief does not come unless it is to steal and slay and destroy. I have come that they might have life and might have it in abundance. 11 I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep....
I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.
So initially in John 10:1 Jesus is concentrating about getting his sheep out of a pen or courtyard, but now from verse 7, he is talking about freedom of movement and concentrating on the entrance into this freedom through him. The exit from the pen and the freedom to come and go in green pastures is obviously through him surrendering his soul willingly.
The only covenants, that appear to have ended are the Mosaic Law covenant and the circumcision covenant.
One was replaced, the Law covenant.
Heb. 8:10 ‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.
11 ‘And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: “Know Jehovah!†For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. 12 For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.'
13 In his saying 'a new [covenant]' he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away.
So anyone exiting the mosaic pen through Jesus, will enter the new covenant through Jesus, and they will find pasturage there. They will be free to feed themselves. It is a place of freedom through Jesus, come and go as you like. Any sheep in the old courtyard was protected but there was no fresh grass and no food unless a bale of hay was chucked over the wall.
So now Jesus' speech has moved on to a new arrangement, where the sheep are free.
Hi Vicky, I think the real key to John Chapter 10 can be found in John Chapter 9 and Ezek 34.
John 9
These leaders of Israel ( Hirelings ) were raking this poor little sheep over the coals. They couldn't have cared less he was born blind and now can see!! Instead they cling to the law and want to take down Jesus for breaking the Sabbath.
So we have a contrast of the false shepherds of chapter 9 with " The Good Shepherd " of chapter 10. as well as the contrast of the Blind man with the Pharisee's who think they can see.
John 9
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?â€
36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?â€
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.â€
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!†And he worshiped Him.
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.â€
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?â€
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.
Who cared for this little sheep the False Shepherds of Israel or the Good Shepherd?
Ezek 34
1 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD to the shepherds: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks? 3 You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool; you slaughter the fatlings, but you do not feed the flock. 4 The weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who were sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost; but with force and cruelty you have ruled them.
11 ‘For thus says the Lord GOD: “Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day.
14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,†says the Lord GOD. 16 “I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.â€
23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the LORD, have spoken.
25 “I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.
30 Thus they shall know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people,†says the Lord GOD.’â€
31 “You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God,†says the Lord GOD.
John 10 ends with the Pharisees wanting Jesus to say I AM the Christ
He doesn't just come out and say I AM THE CHRIST!!! instead He
makes a reference that ticked them right off back to.
Duet 32:39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive; ( John 11 )
I wound and I heal; ( John 9 )
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. ( John 10 )
John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 [b]My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.â€
They said they believed in God but they were so blind they couldn't even recognize Him when He was standing before them healing people blind from birth, raising the dead to life,controlling the elements of nature with a simple word " Be still ", having power over the demonic realm,controlling the fish of the sea and their movements,putting a coin in ones mouth,healing people in far away places without being told who they were,or where they were but by simply saying go " and at that very hour he was healed "
John 10:37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.â€
Yet they remained hard hearted and blind, still thinking that they could see!!!
Is 45:12
I have made the earth,
And created man on it.
I—My hands—stretched out the heavens,
And all their host I have commanded.
Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; ( see PS 45:6,7 )
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.â€
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.†( PS 102:25,27 )
Tis by Faith that one receives sight.
BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:
Rez brought up this scripture.
Ephesians 2:14
14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself.
This suggests that making of one flock is by the removal of the barrier of the Law of commandments.
This in turn means that the other sheep included the ones that Paul was writing to, the Gentile Ephesians.
Galatians 3:23 was also brought up.
23 However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, (See further post as to better translation). looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one * in union with Christ Jesus.
The removal of the Law when Jesus came meant that there was neither Jew nor Gentile for in Christ they become one.
The Law was a temporary protection, which guarded them.
*Here the NWT adds the word [person] though it is not in the Greek. We could just as easily add [flock] or [faith] or nothing at all etc.
Romans 2 was also discussed
14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.
28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
Compare this with Deuteronomy 30
6 And Jehovah your God will have to circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, that you may love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul for the sake of your life.
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Romans 7 tells us that since the law has died, we are free to become anothers.
2 For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law of her husband. 3 So, then, while her husband is living, she would be styled an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s.
Verse 4 is interesting.
So, my brothers, YOU also were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ, that YOU might become another’s, the one’s who was raised up from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God
The Law had to end so that these ones could come to be under the law of Christ as his woman.
This scripture was also tied in with Luke 16:14--->
14 Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him.
15 Consequently he said to them: “YOU are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows YOUR hearts; because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.
16 The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on the kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every person is pressing forward toward it.
17 Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one particle of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled.
18 Everyone that divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he that marries a woman divorced from a husband commits adultery.
Some interesting points here. In the interlinear when it says
sneer, it literally says 'they out nosed him'. almost like sticking their thumbs on their noses and twiddling their fingers.
The fact that Jesus brings up marriage after discussing the kingdom may also be relevent. This is direct from the interlinear.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter.../luk16.pdf
16 FROM then THE KINGdom OF-THE God IS-beING-WELL-MESSAGizED
.................
Noun nominative feminine
AND EVERY INTO her IS-beING-FORCED
every-one ...
into her/it...
is-violently-forcing
The noun for kingdom is feminine, so anything relating to that noun will also be feminine. It will be written as she, and into it is literally into her.
This is a much disputed verse, but given the context it sounds like these wealthy Pharisees think they can take the kingdom by force, by raping their way into the kingdom.
Controversial but worth considering.
I am sure you have read in Ezekial about the trickle of waters of life that you can paddle in and eventually you are swimming in a torrent, this is what happens when I start research on a subject.
There are so many interesting things that I have discovered since starting to write about last Sunday's discussion I might just bullet point them.
- The Israelites reaffirmed the Sinaii covenant many times. One of these times was Deuteronomy, see also (Josh 24:1-24, 2 Chron. 15:12, 23:16, 2 Kings 23:3; 2 Chron. 34:31-32).
- We reaffirm the New Covenant every time we take the bread and wine.
- The Mosaic Covenant was based on performing laws, it was external, whereas the New Covenant was written on the heart.
- Hence the external Mosaic Covenant was ratified and reaffrmed by animal sacrifices and the sprinkling on of blood.
- The New Law written on hearts was ratified by the blood of Jesus, but reaffirmed regularly internally, by drinking of the wine and eating the bread.
We discussed Galatians which is vital for a christian and anyone who wants to understand covenants.
Jehovah made promises including a major promise to Abraham. This is discussed in Galatians 3. Once a promise has been given, conditions cannot be added (3:15).
God knew in advance that the Israelites could not obey the Mosaic Law covenant he gave them, and he did not use their disobedience to abandon the promises he had given to Abraham.
The 'old' Law covenant was an addition, given for a temporary purpose. It is now expired, no longer in effect, but the promise to Abraham, upon which it was based, is still in effect.
Poor Hagar prefigured this, though her arrogance also pictured that of the Pharisees. They were mere physical descendants of Abraham, not spiritual ones.
Jehovah made promises including a majorpromise to Abraham. This is discussed in Galatians 3. Once a promise has been given, conditions cannot be added (3:15).
God knew in advance that the Israelites could not obey the covenant he gave them, and he did not use their disobedience to abandon the promises he had given to Abraham.
The old covenant was an addition, given for a temporary purpose. It is now expired, no longer in effect, but the promise to Abraham, upon which it was based, is still in effect.
Poor Hagar prefigured this, though her arrogance also pictured that of the Pharisees. They were mere physical descendants of Abraham, not spiritual ones.
And pity the poor stupid Galatians who by then hadn't got it, Vicky. It's almost too much to think how vastly misunderstood this epistle has been in Christendom through the ages.
Galatians 3:1-7 (Amplified Bible):
YOU poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians! Who has fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom--right before your very eyes--Jesus Christ (the Messiah) was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed as crucified?
Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying the Law and doing its works, or was it by hearing [the message of the Gospel] and believing [it]? [Was it from observing a law of rituals or from a message of faith?]
Are you so foolish and so senseless and so silly? Having begun [your new life spiritually] with the [Holy] Spirit, are you now reaching perfection [by dependence] on the flesh?
Have you suffered so many things and experienced so much all for nothing (to no purpose)--if it really is to no purpose and in vain?
Then does He Who supplies you with His marvelous [Holy] Spirit and works powerfully and miraculously among you do so on [the grounds of your doing] what the Law demands, or because of your believing in and adhering to and trusting in and relying on the message that you heard?
Thus Abraham believed in and adhered to and trusted in and relied on God, and it was reckoned and placed to his account and credited as righteousness (as conformity to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action).
Know and understand that it is [really] the people [who live] by faith who are [the true] sons of Abraham.
Christian affection,
sw
Another quick point I have discovered is the translation of Galations 3 by the WT.
23 However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. NWT
This is dicussing the mosaic law and sounds a bit like the pen in John 10.
If we check the Greek on the other hand, it says.....
However before the faith, under law we were being kept watch, being shut up together until the faith was revealed.
Now that really makes the Mosaic Law sound like a sheep pen that kept the Israelites shut up and under watch.
Naughty WT they have been tinkering with original words again, blurred the edges so it was not obvious what the sheep pen was.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the Law, locked up to wait for the faith which would eventually be revealed to us.New Jerusalem Bible
Four Promises, Two Covenants and a Blessing.
The promises to Abraham were like a work in progress.
We start off in Genesis 12 where Abram is told to leave Haran and goes to the land of the Canaanites.
This is promise 1.
I will make a great nation out of you.
Your name will be great and prove a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you and vice versa.
All families will be blessed by means of you.
Genesis 13:14-16 After Abram has given Lot first choice of the land,
So Jehovah makes promise 2.
All the land you can see to the north, south, east, and west, I will give to your seed.
Your seed will be as numerous as the dust particles (numerous mortals).
Go roam around in this land because I am giving it to you
Genesis 14:19 Blessing Melchizedek blesses Abram.
Genesis 15:4,5 promise 3.
Abram will indeed have an heir, and his seed would now be as numerous as the stars in the heavens.
Abraham now asks for a sign, so Jehovah makes a covenant, a promise with something legal.
Genesis 15:9 covenant 1
Abram cuts in two a three year old cow, a three year old nanny goat and a three year old ram and divides the two halves placing them separately. He also places a dove and a pigeon on either side. At night a fiery torch goes between the pieces, and the promise for the land is now a covenant.
The significance of cutting up these animals and separating the two halves is that just as we say 'cut a deal', in Hebrew they would say 'cut a covenant'. Genesis 15:18 a covenant was cut.
There is now a covenant to take possession of the land.
But it will not be without its difficulties, because it is prophesied that his seed will become slaves and be afflicted for 400 years
Genesis 17 covenant 2
Abram becomes Abraham, a father of many nations.
Jehovah will give the land of Canaan to Abrahams seed, and he will be their God i.e. the God of Abrahams seed.
This covenant is also cut, to include the whole of Abraham's household, hence circumcision. Verse 14 tells us that anyone who will not get circumcised has broken Jehovah's covenant.
The trigger for this covenant is that soon Sarah will produce the Abrahams promised seed, Isaac.
Genesis 22:16 promise 4 (The biggie)
By myself I do swear (hence a promise swearing on his own name).
I shall bless you and multiply your seed like the stars of the heaven and like the grains of sand on the seashore.
And your seed will take possession of the gate of HIS enemies.
And by means of your seed all the nations of the earth will bless themselves.
Notice the promises are made usually after Abraham has shown extraordinary faith. There are no conditions attached because he has already proven his worth.
Notice Abrahams seed is symbolised like dust (mortals)
but then moves up to include the stars of the heavens, and then both the stars of the heavens and grains of sand on the sea shore (heaven and earth).
With each promise Jehovah adds something more and it is related to the sign of faith Abraham has already just displayed.
The question is have any of the promises ended,
and which of the covenants have ended?
Dear BB thanks for your input. I agree Jesus was contrasting himself as the fine shepherd with the money loving Pharisees who fleeced the sheep.
The problem we were dicussing was what was the pen, because identifiyng the pen identifies who are the other sheep.
The WT has juggled things to make it appear that this is a class of humans destined to live on earth, in comparison to those inside the pen who are heavenbound.
But if the pen is the Mosaic Law covenant, or even the Abrahmic covenant of circumcision (less likely) then the sheep in the pen that come out and the others that are not in the pen have to be Jews being combined with Gentiles.
Most Christians know this, but for ex witnesses it has to be reconfirmed, because the WT has previously messed with our understanding of the scriptures.
Thanks vicky
So which promises to Abraham have ended?
I suggest the word fulfilled is better.
Well they have all been fulfilled.
The covenants have been fulfilled as well.
So I suppose the question is, which of these promises and covenants still apply?
Well working backwards, the real big, earth shattering promise is the one about Jesus, and that one still applies.
Paul realised that this final promise was not going to be initially about all of Abraham's offspring.
Genesis 22
16‘By myself I do swear,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, 17 I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore;
and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies.
18 And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’â€
Paul said in Galatians 3:
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,†as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,†who is Christ.
The reason why the Bible keeps using the word 'seed' instead of children or offspring is because the Hebrew word 'Zerah' is the same in the singular as in the plural. This is a bit like our word for sheep; one sheep, many sheep....... not.... alot of sheepses.
The same also applies to our word offspring.
'How are your offspring'? (More than one).
'My offspring is sitting here and HE is fine!' (only one being mentioned). So we know how many are being discussed not by adding 's' on the end, but by related pronouns HE and whether the verb is singular or plural, (is versus are).
So Paul has picked up that the Hebrew verb is in the singular as is the pronoun 'him'.
Genesis 22:-
! וְיִרַ
and·he-shall-tenant (verb)
זַרְעֲ
seed-of·you
עַר !ַ
gate-of
×ֹיְבָיו
ones-being-enemies-of·him
In fact 'offspring' is a good word to translate 'seed'.
In the final promise that Jehovah gives, the primary seed is one, singular, Jesus Christ.
But Paul points out that if we have the faith of Abraham we are all Abraham's seed. What was the faith of Abraham?
His faith was that even if the son were sacrificed, that son would be raised up.
Tying together Paul's words in Galatians 3:
7 Surely you know that those who adhere to faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham.
26 You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus.
29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
Whoever comes into God's family by showing the faith of Abraham, is not only a son of God, belongs also to Christ, and becomes one of Abraham's seed.
Although Jesus fulfilled the role in the promise, the benefits of this promise are forever and ever. Aeons into the Aeons.
Dear BB thanks for your input. I agree Jesus was contrasting himself as the fine shepherd with the money loving Pharisees who fleeced the sheep.
The problem we were dicussing was what was the pen, because identifiyng the pen identifies who are the other sheep.
The WT has juggled things to make it appear that this is a class of humans destined to live on earth, in comparison to those inside the pen who are heavenbound.
But if the pen is the Mosaic Law covenant, or even the Abrahmic covenant of circumcision (less likely) then the sheep in the pen that come out and the others that are not in the pen have to be Jews being combined with Gentiles.
Most Christians know this, but for ex witnesses it has to be reconfirmed, because the WT has previously messed with our understanding of the scriptures.
Thanks vicky
Hi Vicks,
A simple confirmation of your excellent point is to read through Ephesians chapter 2. I was going to outline it, but it would be better for people to read it through in the light of the light you have just shed on to the matter.
Agape.
Aa
Hi Vicks,
A simple confirmation of your excellent point is to read through Ephesians chapter 2. I was going to outline it, but it would be better for people to read it through in the light of the light you have just shed on to the matter.
Agape.
Aa
Such as this?
Ephesians 2
14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself.
(even in the NewWT)
Hi Vicks,
A simple confirmation of your excellent point is to read through Ephesians chapter 2. I was going to outline it, but it would be better for people to read it through in the light of the light you have just shed on to the matter.
Agape.
Aa
Such as this?
Ephesians 2
14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself.
(even in the NewWT)
Yep,
Rather like that :)
The only problem is the WT translates different words as the same word......covenant.
Which is how they muddy the waters of peoples understanding.
The 'covenant' with Abraham was not a legal contract, covenant is a poor translation, it is really an unconditional promise.
Similarly the promise diatithemai for a part in the kingdom and to sit on thrones made to the eleven apostles by Jesus was unconditional and needed no sacrifice.
Whereas the new covenant or 'Last Will and Testament' diatheke(testament meaning covenant), required a mediator.
Being in the new covenant does not guarantee the promise of sitting on thrones, otherwise a further promise to Jesus' disciples would not be necessary.
Oh my, can you see how far off I am with covenants?
Having reread Genesis, I realise there were four promises and two covenants with Abraham.
There was not "The Abrahamic Covenant" as the WT teaches.
They have lost four promises and a covenant.