Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Malkah posted this on another thread,

Now some people became rather heated, but that does not negate the importance of discussing this topic sensibly.

It was suggested that thanatos, death, means separation.
That it does not just mean 'gone and pushing up the daisies' is obvious, but I could not find a good reason for it to mean separation as such, although the idea is appealing. My question being, is this word 'separation' close enough? If we latch onto that are we missing something else?

By this I mean we need to try and find out what that word meant to the early Christians and what was its language journey etymologically?
Thanatos is a borrowed word, he was a Greek god. A god of nice death, admittedly, they had another god for violent death, such as on the battle field.

I am sure we can add ideas and feelings to this word, but we don't have one specific English word that can define it, hence it is going to be tricky.

Anyone who knows languages knows that some languages do not contain the nuances that another does.
English borrowed Latin words for legal matters, Saxon words for farming, and French words for cooking, because the original Brits did not have these words in their own language. I had to borrow the word nuance from French to try to compose the previous sentence.
How would an Inuit describe his thirty odd words for snow?

Some cultures admire a 'play on words'. Jesus appears to have done this many times in the Aramaic.

I think a scripture like this (which I have posted on another topic) would be important to ponder, because we can be dead now or have eternal life now.

1John 3:14,15
We have stepped across out of death (thanatou) into the life (zoe), because we are loving the brothers. The one not loving is remaining in the death (thanatos).
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionian (everlasting) life (zoe)abiding in him.

I know the WT gets around this by talking about 'spiritual life' and 'spiritual death', but it seems that we might be missing subtleties of language here.

I don't want to ramble on, but was the evident lack of love for God the reason why Adam and Eve came to be, and remained in death?

More importantly, rather than dwelling on the real meaning of death (thanatos), we need to be dwelling on the real meaning of life (zoe) and the life that cannot be snuffed out.
If we have aionion zoe, we will have been counted worthy of the aionos.

Vickster, I find this a very intriguing topic to be sure. Though before I fully type out my thoughts on this matter, are you prehaps suggesting that those with Aionon Zoe, the everlasting life, are subject to some sort of (and I cringe and hope that this word alone doesn't spark another round of debate...it's only a question people, directed at Vicky) reincarnation? I ask this because your choice of scripture is interesting. John 3:14-15. That we have been drawn out of death into life because we loved. And that those who did not love remain dead. Does this mean that we came back, while others could not?

If this is your point, I have a suggestion that might seem a bit odd. What if love is nourishment for the soul, whereas hate kills it? Disperses the soul making it weak and unable to be brought back across this valley of death. It's journey incomplete because of its ravages. Just as a flower mistreated that does not root properly might throw off seeds that are all ready dead, and one that is strong throws off seeds that can survive through fall, winter and spring before rising again, strong and beautiful.

Just a thought, however odd...:whistle:

I think you are right about love nourishing the soul and the love we show our children nourishes their soul, so that they in turn can show love to others.

I cannot find any scriptural basis for the idea of reincarnation though.

We are really going to have to think outside the box if we we are going to get to grips with this, because we do not have a word or image to fall back on.

The nearest idea that pops into my head at the moment is that those with aionion zoe have a 'get out of jail free card'.
Jesus used his and was out within three days.
For the rest of us, (trying to bring scriptures to the fore, help!) it is not so quick, but it means we do not stand trial before God, when our case comes up we are immediately released.

I do not think this has happened yet, but am willing to be proven wrong. Those in thanatos whilst still alive, are holding the card that says, go to Jail, do not pass Go, do not collect £200 (or whatever in dollars).

This is just me rambling trying to find an analogy in Monopoly.

Although I think all will get a second chance, one where we have been enlightened, where Jesus tries to make the playing pitch as level as possible, some because of their love (and faith:-see Hebrews and Galatians), fast track through all that straight into eternal life, aionion zoe.
Perhaps it does not seem fast track by the standards of earth time but certainly by the standards of Jehovah/Jesus time.

When pondering this, we need to try to find out what the Greek says, is it using zoe and thanatos as opposites, which will give us insight on what the words mean.
Rather than describing our bodies alone, which would just be living matter and dead matter with or without some electrical impulses in the brain, zoe and thanatos are obviously more; (it is bios and nekron I believe for living and dead matter, again help needed).

Many on this board have discussed aionos and aionion zoe before.
All these words are tricky.

I know some get worked up because it affects how they perceive their dead ones, but the love we need is for our fellow man, which reflects our love for Jehovah, not falling in love with some belief we have just come across and grasped.

Revelation 20:5 is considered spurious. Matthew 27:53 contradicts all scripture and logic. So death (and life) are truly emotive subjects, and have even lead to the tampering of scriptures.

Now on to Luke 20: 34-38, for more brain itch.

Our Lord Jesus describes life as something of value. He showed love by offering up in death, his life.


John 15:12 "This is my commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you.

John 15:13 No one shows greater love than when he lays down his life for his friends.

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

:juggle:

therefore: life .....is worth dying for.

:coffeeread:

Jesus talks about life (and death)...

Matthew 10:38...

"The one who doesn't take up his cross and follow me isn't worthy of me."


Matthew 10:39...

"The one who finds his life will lose it, and the one who loses his life because of me will find it."


:hibye:

OK I HAVE NOT ONLY BITTEN OFF MORE THAN I CAN CHEW, BUT ENOUGH TO KEEP THIS BOARD CHOMPING FOR A LONG TIME.

4 WORDS, ZOE,THANATOS, AION AND AIONIOS oh and OLAM (Heb.)

These have caused problems for great Greek scholars, so without putting my big toe in to test the waters, I have jumped straight in.

The preceeding and following is me swimming for my life, but these words are important if we want to know what is held out for us.

In the Old Testament the old covenant is referred to as the "everlasting covenant" KJ. The NWT says time indefinite, others say age during, the Hebrew word is Olam.

Olam
according to Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies is a "duration of time which is concealed or hidden." In other words, an unknown length of time. Though it may have been a very long or even indeterminable period of time, the sense that it would come to an end was always there. 'An age of time' has been suggested as a translation for 'olam'.

Aionios
New Testament
Jesus said, at John 17:3
"Now this is the aeonios life zoe:
in order that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent out"
So aionios zoe does not automatically mean eternity, but is a quality of relationship with Jesus Christ who brings us into a present knowledge and experience with God our Father.

Now the tense is present continual, and if we are to know God presently but continually, then something of eternity is inferred. The adjective aionion in the previous verse I believe is in the plural*.

Still with me?

Aion
The Greek adjective aeonios/aionios is derived from the noun Aeon or Aion.
Aion means 'age' or 'ages' as in "the ages to come" Eph.2:7. These ages are time periods having a beginning and an end.
The WT frequently translates Aion as 'system of things', which makes it very difficult to connect to its adjective 'Aionios'

In the study of grammar, it is an indisputable law that an adjective can have no different or greater meaning than the noun from which it is derived.
For example, the adjective 'weekly' could only be derived from the noun WEEK not from hour or month.
Aeonios life can only mean a life pertaining to an age or ages of time because "aeonios" is derived from "aeon." Hence, the misapplication of the word "eternal," implying timelessness, when periods or portions of time are meant, obscures rather than proclaims God’s magnificent plans for man.

*How can you pluralise an adjective? Well many languages make their adjectival endings reflect the noun. A chaise longue, literally means a long chair, but if you had two it would be deux chaises longues. 'Longue' has been pluralised. Using the analogy of the adjective 'weekly', in English we have pluralised it and turned it into a noun, as in 'the weeklies (weekly newspapers) normally come out on Friday, but the dailies come out early each the morning'.

Hi man hu,

I'd like to return to that word thanatos and its (possible) meaning of separation.
We have all felt the profound pain of death when our loved ones die. The pain is from the separation. The resurrection will be the connecting again in life without death creating a gulf/separation.

When Jesus was nearly at the point of parting in death, he felt it by crying out to his Father about being forsaken. He knew the blackness of death, that separation, was a breath away.

Man hu wrote -'It was suggested that thanatos, death, means separation.
That it does not just mean 'gone and pushing up the daisies' is obvious, but I could not find a good reason for it to mean separation as such, although the idea is appealing. My question being, is this word 'separation' close enough? If we latch onto that are we missing something else?'

What you say above is interesting.
If death is not separation, I can only ask "what is it then"? If it doesn't mean separation, why do people wail and weep, shred their clothes, put on sackcloth, wear black (in some cultures) for a year? Moses wailed along with other ancients so it appears that death has always meant being bereft.
I do know people who believe that their loved person is with the Lord right now and their intensity of grief is lessened, however, there still is that separation period. They are not here with us.

Death is a fact of life:thinking:[/b]

Tessa

Yes I agree Tessa.
Some think that thanatos is a separation of body and soul.
The separation of one loved one from another is where the pain lies.
When the first couple ate the fruit, they were embarassed, but Jehovah and Jesus felt the pain.
My querie is, if we translated the words differently, or maybe by a few hyphenated words, since we don't seem to have one to get close enough, would we get a better understanding of the meaning?

Greetings All,

Trying not to dwell on death...

Deuteronomy 30 seems to imply that "life" and "death" are polar opposites just as are "good" and "evil" ("bad").

15 See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessings and the curses; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live

Since they are polar opposites, the meanings should be apparent.



Also...

Death is described in no uncertain terms at 1 Corinthians 15:26

26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.



One more thing...

I wholeheartedly agree that none of us truly know what life really is in it's fullest sense.

Yet, that is why we are here in part; as we struggle together on the road of life.

We may fuss and fight over points of doctrine and articles of faith; but in the end, it's the faith and love we manifest in imitation of the Master, that will get us to our destination.




OK, one more thing, more...

As far as "death" being some kind of "separation", it bears repeating that such a claim finds no support in the orginal languages.

I cannot find any justification outside of Strong's definition.

I can be wrong, frequently am, and my wife will back me up on it. :D

So, if anyone discovers anything definitive, please let me know.


By the way, Vicky and Malkah, I find Strong's also serves well as a stop for keeping the doors open on these warm Florida nights.

Actually, one door is propped by Strong's, and the other by a set of Insight volumes. :D


"two small coins"

Love to All,
John

Hi Tessa!
If we can translate thanatos as separation, we we to clarify separation of what from what. Is it separation for our loved ones, or separation from the father, or from life?
It could be either.
So as Vicki said, we need more English words to clarify. We are aware that the Bible speaks of the first and second death, so just saying that death is the opposite of life is inadequate. Likewise, there is life, and there is the real life that Jesus eluded to. So there you have it! :whistle:

Hi e-magine,

Lemme disagree with you, brother; using your own words.

And, some of mine.


As I said in my last post, Deut. 30 places life and death as polar opposites.

You said the Bible speaks of a first and second death.

By the "first death" we mean Adamic death.

We also know life as imperfect humans, is not the real life YHVH had intended.

We could term the "real life" as the "second life".

So, we have in essence, two "lifes" and two "deaths".



Therefore...

Life (imperfect human life) is the opposite of Adamic death (the "first death", as you said above).

AND

Life (the "real" or "second life") is the opposite of the second death death.



So there you have it! :D


Saying that death (the first death) is the opposite of life (the first life) is quite adequate.

AND

Saying that death (the second death) is the opposite of life (the second life) is quite adequate.



"two lepta"

or, as e-magine said in another post,

"two large mutant felines" :blackcat: :blackcat:


Love to All,
John

That which is about to burst upon the world will not be a message brought "with the enticing words of man's wisdom," but one which comes in the "power and demonstration" of Christ.

It will not be simply the declaration of another doctrine, another batch of concepts, more books, more information. And believe me, it will certainly not be the coming of men and women who are attracted to the spotlight, to the crowds, to fame and fortune. This that is coming very quickly now, the unsealing of the Living Testimony, will shock the entire world, including the religious world.

When that small remnant of "come-outers" enters into the Testimony of Life, enters into WHAT HE IS, and their very lives begin to bear record as to what Christ is, then shall be laid to rest the controversy as to which is the true church. Lines will be drawn and sides taken as the message goes forth like a trumpet blast, declaring the imminent appearing of the Lord in those who are looking for Him.

This is presently coming to pass. I do not say that it is complete, yet. But I do declare that the Lord has revealed, to those who have ears to hear, that this is the time of realities rather than concept. It is the time of entering into the very life of Christ Himself. It is being made abundantly clear to all that we must die to this world of carnal elementary so-called truths, a spiritual death while still in the flesh, before our physical deaths, to be alive again with Christ and where he is at present, after we lose our physical bodies and die a fleshly death on earth.

It is being made very clear that what Jesus accomplished for us while he died on His cross was not a reprieve for the flesh, but flesh's sentence, that we are not delivered from the cross, but to it; that we are not delivered from death, but through death, to be raised again in the first resurrection! There is no way into any world but by a birth into it, and there is no way out of any world but by a death.

Luk 23:42 And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come in Your kingdom.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise

Christ died on the cross the very day He made that statement. Further, He committed His spirit to God just before He breathed His last. Luke 23:46


Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. John 12:24

As those who are becoming love-slaves to Christ enter into Him more and more fully, by way of an applied cross (not a doctrinal one), more and more of His nature becomes theirs, more and more of what He is becomes theirs, more and more of His glory rests upon them, more and more of His life is theirs, as their lives are laid down and admitting to themselves, that they cannot do anything of themselves, and will never know any truth unless they enter in through Christ's door, because he is the key.. This is known as, coming to zero! Death

There is a place into which one may enter from which there is no going out. "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:..." This position, having been gained, cannot be lost. This is within the veil of the Holy of Holies, or the Most Holy Place. It is within the very presence of God, Himself! There is preparation required for this, for our God is a consuming fire.

"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;" -- Isaiah 33:14, 15.

Coming to zero is not the great loss most think it to be. It is, in fact, not loss but gain. Does it mean the loss of your life?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." -- Revelation 2:7.

Does it mean the loss of credibility? "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" -- Revelation 2:26.

Does it mean the loss of home, lands, friends, even all things? "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." -- Revelation 21:7.

Does it perhaps (it probably will) mean the loss of your "good" name? "...and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." -

- Revelation 3:12. No, there is no true loss in Christ. There is only gain; but gain through loss, life through death, glory through shame, power through weakness, exaltation through abasement.

This realm is not one of doctrinal stances and concepts. It is one of living realities. Those who are entering in are finding that this is where the "hidden manna" is. There is a revelation of God's heart, or His thought and purpose concerning Christ, which is not apparent to others still caught up in doctrines of men as their "holy place".

Shame and suspicion are always connected with any new thing which God is doing and which most are not yet "seeing."

There comes a time when that which the cross has been allowed to accomplish in the lives of some is to be manifested and revealed.

This will take place at the "sealing" of those who have left all to follow the Lamb whithersoever He leadeth. "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads" Revelation 7:3. "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel"

Revelation 7:4.
This "sealing" is nothing else but the placement of adoption spoken of in Romans. "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body"

Romans 8:23. If you will look back at the preceding verse you will notice that the number of those sealed in Rev. 7 was 144,000. That is the symbolic number denoting the firstfruits company of overcomers. I do not believe that it is a literal number, or that the number of overcomers are limited to this figure. "12 = divine government so 12 x 12 = 144 + 000, which 0's simply show "added glory." These are those who allow Jesus' rule from the throne room of their hearts. Self has been dethroned and they are under divine government!"

Those in this company of people are thus sealed in their foreheads, or (the receiving of the mind of Christ) are those who experience what is known as the "placement of adoption." and receive the new name.

Galatians 4:1-9 (New King James Version)

Galatians 4
1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


These ones have had an insatiable desire to know Him, to be conformed to His death that they might also be partakers of His resurrection, that is, the first resurrection. This company of misfits have been willing to pay a price, for they know by the Spirit that there is but one way out of this life and that is through a very real death.....death to self by way of the cross. They have not believed the lie that we are delivered from death by the cross of Christ, but unto death! Therefore, they have part in the first resurrection, being blessed and holy. The second death has no power over them.

Love,
New Heart

Gen 2:17 'In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die' NWT

As Malkah pointed out this makes it appear God is confused on the first page as Adam continued to live and have children.

That is not what is says in the original.

Dying thou dost die Youngs

and·from·tree-the·knowledge-of good and·evil not you-shall-eat from·him that in·day-of to-eat-of·you to-die you-shall-die.Heb. Interlinear

Septuagint Interlinear. To death, you shall die.
NETS you shall die by death.

So it appears that many tranlations like the NWT assume that the repetition of the word death, is emphasising its certainty.

But supposing it is saying something else. A bit like children promising to keep a secret, and one version says instead of 'cross my heart and hope to die',...... 'I'll die till I'm dead'.

Sounds a bit silly, I know, but from the moment Adam ate the fruit, that very day, he started dying, and he continued to do so until he was dead.

OK, got it...

Eternal life is not really eternal (1.), but is eternal (2.), but not really eternal (3.).

Going...going...:outcold:

A little dizzy, but hanging on for the ride.


Share, please???...

:2cents:
LtA,
John