Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Thanks Ol' Timer. :hibye:

One thing that strikes me is really how absent the great apostasy is on the board -

That might sound odd, with all the opposed viewpoints, but it's true in a way. One thing which makes the "great apostasy" ""great"" in religions is the way it forces itself into people's belief systems, giving them no choice if they wish to keep their ticket to heaven.

Here on the board we all believe what we sincerely believe - right or wrong - but sincerely. Nobody forces us to follow a line, the fear is missing, and even should a genuine apostate visit we can simply discard their views. Perhaps for the great apostasy to thrive, there has to be control and membership of people - but without that, it loses it's deep strength.

Acts5v29

VERY interesting!!! :cheer:

Thanks for that, I think I need some sunglasses!

Cheers matey! :friends:

Well put sister. :love:

Dogmatism & restrictions on healthy debate are usually tell-tell signs that something isn't right, especially when one advocating an idea claims "the spirit told them". :readthis:

Saying "the spirit told me so" doesn't sound like a particularly discreet way of feeding the spiritually hungry (even if it is true) IMHO. :eat:

agape Johnny :heartbeat:

Hiya all, :hibye:

Now you've gone and done it. :thinking: Just exactly what is apostasy? :read: Let's discuss it so we know how to avoid it. :thumbup::read: I think I know how j dubs define it but then I'm not sure totally. :help: I remember a verse about sinning against the spirit. Maybe thats it. :confused:

Lee

Smoldering Wick's first post-

The Bible foretold there would be an apostasy. Jesus illustrated it with leaven, fishing nets and weeds deliberately planted among the wheat. He also stated very clearly that by the end, apostasy would grow to such an extent that Christianity would be completely compromised (Luke 18:8) and many false prophets would arise and mislead many—to the point that true Christians would be hard to find.

History speaks for itself. True believers have and always will be in the minority. Even when they grouped together they were at risk of infiltration by the false. When Jesus said to be cautious as serpents and innocent as doves, he anticipated this historical anomaly.

James said if any are lacking wisdom they should ask God who gives generously. Why? Because false Christians always dress up to appear true. They are made to be confident in their belief—even more confident than true Christians, which is why they are quick to point out flaws in anyone struggling to be true and condemn all who don’t buy their particular brand and definition of Christianity. Their best defence is a deadly offence making them quick to cry foul and demand equality so that their ambiguous rules might be imposed to manipulate the faithful.

Thus in any sincere group, these are the ones who will quickly rise to the top. They do so through complex reasoning, carefully manipulating others toward the same ambition through powerful arguments until they have established unquestionable doctrines and no true Christian remains to dare speak openly against them.

This is not to say that all false Christians are insincere. Within themselves they believe that they have the truth. How do we know? Because they truly believe their teaching is blessed by God and believe that God blesses their every means to achieve the indoctrination of others. How else were the most heinous crimes in history justified? Were not all inquisitors sincere in silencing their opponents through every manner of torture and murder? (John 16:2)

So how does anyone who wants to become—and remain—a true Christian discern whether he or she is in company others of like faith? How does he or she use sufficiently the wisdom God gives to act wisely?

Few of those among us were given natural insight. Most who search for God with true hearts do so in great innocence, trusting that God is kind enough to answer prayers without the encumbrance of lies. Again, the prime reason Jesus would keep admonishing us to discern with cautious, serpent-like wisdom is that there still exists this narrow gate—this cramped road requiring extra oil for lamps to guide us into God’s favour over any other possession.

To genuine Christians it seems unconscionable that God should make it so unbearably difficult for the sincere of heart to approach him that he would allow them to be stumbled as little children. Yet Jesus indicated this would happen by saying, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.” (Luke 17:1-2; New American Standard Bible)

It should be noted that never would anyone so convinced of his own falsehood confess to such a crime for in their sincerity they truly believe that the evil God allows justifies ignoring the above statement. Yet to say that God would never allow such a thing and so justify our actions, we show ignorance that the devil has seduced us into an atrocious sin.

How are we to survive? If it is so easy for some to become falsely sincere how are we to gain better insight into all such complexities Satan has raised? We can only pray as James 1:5 suggests, “not doubting at all” that when such wisdom arrives we will discern the difference between trueness and mere sincerity of heart.

The following is a helpful gauge to illuminate signs that we are deluded by a false belief:

1. You view all opponents as either potential converts or enemies.

2. You proceed into every argument for the sole purpose of winning it or making a convert.

3. You will resort to lying as to your true intentions to hide your real motive for entering into such an argument.

4. You will justify anything done to gain a convert because you truly believe that it was Jesus who illuminated your present conviction.

5. You have not discerned that your apparent love of belief is merely infatuation and that such infatuation permits you to never really know God.

Love and affection,

sw
Love is long-suffering and kind—It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:4-8)

I think this post deserves rereading.

I agree Acts, apostasy shouldn't be thrown around at just anyone who has a different set of beliefs, as long as they are sincere. If Jesus prayed on the cross/stake for the forgiveness of all those who were happy to see the end of him and sincerely believed they were doing God a favour, who are we to judge those who think differently? What was it Jesus said ?:Luke 23:34

Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing!


God will judge our hearts, regardless of whatever knowledge we claim to have. Knowledge can puff up, but love ALWAYS builds up!:heartbeat:It is the most principle teaching in God's word! :heartbeat: If we always follow that leading, then we will avoid resorting to arrogant assumptions regarding the sincere beliefs of those who don't agree with us. :readthis: Nobody has it all 'right' and we should all humbly accept that reality. As long as we walk in Jesus' footsteps, and have the kind of love for God that Jesus stated we should have ( our whole heart, soul and mind ) ) then knowledge is just an acquired asset which we cultivate though use of our mental faculties!Some being blessed more than others in this area!! :thinking: But, then again, not always for their own benefit ( or for the benefit of others for that matter!!:( :thinking::confused:):readthis: Love covers a multitude of sins, doesn't it?:heartbeat:

Christian love to all,
Grateful :giverose:

This bears repeating, grateful.

Especially do I like your reference to 1 Corinthians 8:1 where Paul was talking concerning matters of conscience and things sacrificed to idols. Some are blessed with greater knowledge and, given patience, so will many others come to that knowledge. But they must be led, not pushed, since offending the dignity of others teaches nothing but hate.

The biggest problem with having knowledge is that it forces love to the side when disagreements arise. It makes us hate those who are lacking it when we have it. While we justify our frustration with others who aren't "getting it" we are also forgetting how many others we frustrated when we were in ignorance.

Jesus set the finest example. He knew so much more, yet restrained himself from ever becoming harsh and undignified with those he loved. If we love, we build up. If we know without love, we inflate :pop:

sw

Smoldering Wick:

That just stuck out to me - we should get to an understanding, through our genuine love for God, that He made it simple to worship Him in spirit and truth - like little children with the purest of intent. It is those men/women who claw themselves to the top for the glory and power of themselves that are the stumbling blocks - God didn't do it! And you well said that He allows it. Allowing it doesn't mean He blesses it, of course. But it takes some time, especially coming out of a controlled religion such as Jehovah's Witnesses, to realize that, and to separate Bible truths from the things taught by religion that are not neccesarily the true teachings of God and Christ.

Sooo... have we established that 'apostacy' is not the rejecting of man-made religioous doctrine, but the actual turning away from God Himself? How do we think this will happen - or are we seeing it now on the world scene? I think we are starting to see it with the re-emergence of 'New Age' religions that center on one's self and who have no need or desire for God to guide them. Some people really believe the anti-Christ propaganda set out in such books and movies as 'The DaVinci Code' and others that instill doubt - they've found they can do very well without belief in Jesus Christ. I can't - or rather, I won't. We all have the same choice - but not everyone is even aware that there is a choice to be made...

This is one deep subject, Acts 5:29!

I look forward to more of you all's further thoughts.:thumbsup:

Love, Willa
:peace:

Do you know what I find interesting?

I can only find apostacy in the NWT. Its on the top line with between page number and scriptures on page.

1 Kings 11:

4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech [a] the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.
7 On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.

9 The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. 10 Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD's command. 11


I think these scriptures give ample evidence of what apostacy represent even if it does come from the NWT, which I like to read, too.

One of the hardest interpretations is what are "other gods" for us. Our lives do not have the same sacrificial idols and such. I think that only equivalent to ancient god rituals that I can see in our present day is the "killing" off of others for not adopting laws that are beyond- love your God with everything and your neighbor as yourself.

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

Or the turning of others away from the "spirit and truth" of God, as Jesus himself assured would be available even to those currently worshipping in error and whose lives were far from honourable. (John 4:16-24)

:heartbeat:

sw

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Deuteronomy 13:5
And that prophet, or that dreamer of the dream, is put to death, for he hath spoken apostacy against Jehovah your God (who is bringing you out of the land of Egypt, and hath ransomed you out of a house of servants), to drive you out of the way in which Jehovah thy God hath commanded thee to walk, and thou hast put away the evil thing from thy midst.

Deuteronomy 19:16
When a violent witness doth rise against a man, to testify against him apostacy,

Isaiah 1:5
Wherefore are ye stricken any more? Ye do add apostacy! Every head is become diseased, and every heart [is] sick.

Isaiah 31:6
Turn back to Him from whom sons of Israel Have deepened apostacy.

Isaiah 59:13
Transgressing, and lying against Jehovah, And removing from after our God, Speaking oppression and apostacy, Conceiving and uttering from the heart Words of falsehood.

Jeremiah 28:16
Therefore thus said Jehovah, Lo, I am casting thee from off the face of the ground; this year thou diest, for apostacy thou hast spoken concerning Jehovah.'

Jeremiah 29:32
Therefore, thus said Jehovah, Lo, I am seeing after Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and after his seed, he hath none dwelling in the midst of this people, nor doth he look on the good that I am doing to My people -- an affirmation of Jehovah -- for apostacy he hath spoken against Jehovah.'

Acts 21:21
and they are instructed concerning thee, that apostacy from Moses thou dost teach to all Jews among the nations, saying -- Not to circumcise the children, nor after the customs to walk;

Blessings,

sw

Solomon alllowed his wives to turn him against Jawheh's laws and it was obvious his heart wasn't with his God any longer. :( David didn't allow that to happen because he loved Jahweh his God with all his heart, soul mind and body. Even though his life was ' far from honourable' as SW said. He repented, felt ashamed of what he had done, and turned back to his God. :heartbeat:What about King Manasseh!? Surely what he perpetrated was real horror! He probably did far worse than Solomon! So what was the difference? He repented, humbled himself,and turned back to his God with his whole heart, soul, mind and body. :heartbeat: :worthy: And he was forgiven. :read: Doesn't that just show how merciful our great God is? He sees the heart of all of us.:heartbeat:I sincerely believe that true apostacy involves the opposite. The deliberate act of turning away from God,not repenting, and continuing in going against His laws, with our own heart, soul, mind and body! :thinking: In defiance, and complete knowledge of what we are doing. That to me is apostacy.:( I believe that's how God views it all, and sees our heart. :heartbeat: 1 Sam 16:7 Acts 1 :24 :heartbeat: If we do things without full knowledge ( that would include all of us :thinking:) but our hearts are turned towards Jahweh, and we strive to do our best to please Him, then He knows who belong to Him and His great Son!:heartbeat: Walking in Jesus' footsteps, to the best of our ability, will keep us on the right path. Not turning right or left, but staight ahead.No matter how hard it is to measure up to those footprints of God's beloved Son.That's all God requires from us.:heartbeat: It really isn't much to ask from us, is it?:thinking:

Micah 6:6-8
8 You have already been told what is right ( so we should know God's laws well) and what Jahweh wants from you. Only this, to do what is right, to love loyalty and to walk humbly with your God. JB

And as James said: 1:27

Pure, unspoilt religion, (whether that includes all those different religions today, only He knows :dontknow: :thinking:) in the eyes of God our Father, is this: coming to the help of orphans and widows in their hardships and keeping oneself uncontaminated by the world. JB

We should never go beyond God's word in an effort to prove ourselves right, at all cost. :readthis: And this is where humility will play a major role in keeping us in our place. :giverose::heartbeat:
Christian love to all :giverose:

Hi all, :hibye:

I found these verses in Hebrews. I didn't see the word apostasy, but is the thought here? :read: :confused:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Lee :siskiss: :grouphug:

hi, sis lee, :)

i think it requires keen discernment to get the true sense of those words in hebrews.

i wondered about them for the longest time. i would put them in the 'scales' on one side; and, on the other side, i would put jesus' words to his father, requesting that those who were putting him to death be forgiven, for they 'knew not what they were doing.'

sis grateful mentioned the penultimate example of king manasseh, too. (well done, sis grateful.) had he 'stood away from god'? was he defiant in his rejection of god during his lifetime? the answer is a resounding 'yes' to both questions, isn't it? so, how do we reconcile the words of hebrews 6:4-6 with the case of manasseh? this was my dilemma for years and years.

then, it hit me. no one can impose 'repentance' upon another. all the talking, reasoning, begging, and pleading; all the threatening and ultimatums in the world will be merely wasted words.

the only human who can call such a person to repentance is ... that person! it is somewhat like the prodigal son, who 'came to his senses' ... as a result of new and unanticipated circumstances. in other words, things did not work out as he had thought they would.

the only ones who can make a determination as to whether an individual heart is incorrigibly wicked -- after all opportunities have been exhausted -- are, of course, god and christ.

which is why i believe that the love, compassion, mercy, and understanding of our great creator/god -- as perfectly manifested for us in christ jesus -- is still extended to any individual who may (temporarily) fall into biblical apostasy.

one thing that helped me to come to terms with this thought is the mental picture of a three-year-old screaming at his/her mother: "i hate you!"