Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hiya Iso :cheekkiss:

Thanks so much for taking the time to untangle stuff for me. :thumbup: So what do the verses mean then? :confused: Not trying to look dumb, but maybe I am. :crybaby:

Lee

hiya, again, sis lee, :hibye: [and, no, of course you are not dumb.] ;)

well, my thought, -- which i was attempting to develop -- is that it is not possible for you or me or any other human to 'renew them again to repentance' ... 'if they shall fall away [even to the point of apostasy]' ... but only god, christ, and/or the individual person him/her-self ... may be able to 'renew them[self] again to repentance.'

i did my best to offer the train of thought which has led me to this conclusion in my earlier post, above.

i see those verses as accomplishing two worthwhile objectives for us:

(1) a serious caution to all footstep followers of christ jesus against starting down (or, allowing themselves to be led down) such a defiant, self-willed course in the first place.

and ...

(2) a reminder that, ... 'with god, all things are possible.'

I thought this rendering of 2 Thessalonians 2 was of uplifting, although I'm somewhat mystified why the writers chose the word Anarchist?
1-3
Now, friends, read these next words carefully. Slow down and don't go jumping to conclusions regarding the day when our Master, Jesus Christ, will come back and we assemble to welcome him. Don't let anyone shake you up or get you excited over some breathless report or rumored letter from me that the day of the Master's arrival has come and gone. Don't fall for any line like that.
3-5
Before that day comes, a couple of things have to happen. First, the Apostasy. Second, the debut of the Anarchist, a real dog of Satan. He'll defy and then take over every so-called god or altar. Having cleared away the opposition, he'll then set himself up in God's Temple as "God Almighty." Don't you remember me going over all this in detail when I was with you? Are your memories that short?
6-8
You'll also remember that I told you the Anarchist is being held back until just the right time. That doesn't mean that the spirit of anarchy is not now at work. It is, secretly and underground. But the time will come when the Anarchist will no longer be held back, but will be let loose. But don't worry. The Master Jesus will be right on his heels and blow him away. The Master appears and—puff!—the Anarchist is out of there.
9-12
The Anarchist's coming is all Satan's work. All his power and signs and miracles are fake, evil sleight of hand that plays to the gallery of those who hate the truth that could save them. And since they're so obsessed with evil, God rubs their noses in it—gives them what they want. Since they refuse to trust truth, they're banished to their chosen world of lies and illusions.
13-14
Meanwhile, we've got our hands full continually thanking God for you, our good friends—so loved by God! God picked you out as his from the very start. Think of it: included in God's original plan of salvation by the bond of faith in the living truth. This is the life of the Spirit he invited you to through the Message we delivered, in which you get in on the glory of our Master, Jesus Christ.
15-17
So, friends, take a firm stand, feet on the ground and head high. Keep a tight grip on what you were taught, whether in personal conversation or by our letter. May Jesus himself and God our Father, who reached out in love and surprised you with gifts of unending help and confidence, put a fresh heart in you, invigorate your work, enliven your speech. (The Message)

Since it's from the book of Hebrews, it helps us see the context: Jews who had turned to the Christ - "been enlightened" - who fall away are rejecting the Christ afresh. It must have been a problem when you think that so many letters were written to cities - specific counsel for their own problems - yet here was one addressed to Hebrews as a race.

You're right Isomam, a helpful warning for us, in graphical terms. Perhaps it was a sign that - before getting that warning - some really hadn't give our Lord his true position as the Messiah, so maybe it was counsel to emphasise that he really was the Messiah, not just the start of a new Jewish sect of which there were many.

One little thing: Our Lord said every sin except the sin against the holy spirit could be forgiven (Matthew 12:32-34). We love our Lord and take it badly if people turn away from him, and I wonder if we can sometime be doing the same in terms of apostacy - subjectively extending what we believe it means to reflect our own loves and preferences for our Friends in the Heavens.

I feel that apostacy is poured by the adversary into the roots of worship, religious organisations themselves - I don't mean particularly the popes or the governing bodies, but deeper than that, the real steering of the individual religions - and that poison then becomes part of worship, to spoil God's reputation. One could argue that individual worshippers are therefore "doing the work of an apostate" in spreading convoluted beliefs - but it would be most unfair to attribute such immense guilt on them. The adversary does the damage, and I'm sure our Lord knows who are innocent victims in his horrible plot. Strange as it may seem...

Willa Wrote:
Sooo... have we established that 'apostacy' is not the rejecting of man-made religioous doctrine, but the actual turning away from God Himself?

...turning away from religion may be a protection from it.

Acts5v29

Yes, I should've worded that better! I meant particular religions' particular doctrines - as the WT says one is 'apostate' to turn away from their religion, as do Catholics and probably other religions do too to some extent. Most all consider themselves to be the only acceptable channel to God. Muslims are labeled 'infidels' when they turn away from Islam and become Christians - under the penalty of death. Defected JW's are also considered 'dead', though symbolically - but it would probably be enforced literally if national law allowed it.:thinking:

This must be a key JW's are instructed to look for in determining 'apostacy'. Elemental, in his thread about the visiting elders, was asked if he'd begun attending a different church - and I was also asked the same question by a sister who stopped by one day last summer. I answered: "Heavens no! I'm ruined for religion now... Jehovah's Witnesses was my final attempt at religion... I'm done with it!" She didn't know whether to be pleased or displeased with my answer.:dontknow:

Hmmm, this is odd - it seems the word "religion" is a fairly modern invention, as the word itself doesn't appear in either the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts.
The NWT lists 'religion(s) 6 times ---
(from the Emphatic Diaglot)
2Kings 17:26,27 = "ath-mahpht" meaning 'custom-of'
" :33 = "k-mahpht" " 'as custom-of'
" :34 & 40 = "u-k-mahpht-m" meaning 'and as custom-of them'

Other Bibles vary widely, having the word "religion" at various places in the NT:
Gal. 1:13,14 - ioudaismos- literally translated it is 'Judaism'
Acts 13:43 - sebomai - " 'revering > being reverent'
25:19 - deisidimonia - " 'dread demonism', superstition'
" 26:5 - thrEskeia - " 'ritual'
Colossians 2:23 - ethelorEskia - " 'willful ritual'
1Timothy 3:16 &
2Timothy 3:5 - eusebeia - " 'devoutness'
1 Timothy 5:4 - eusebeo - " 'to-be being-devout'
James 1:26 - thrEskeia - " 'ritual'
1:27 - thrEskos - " 'ritualist'

:heartbeat::peace:

Mmmm... me too :blush:. Sorry if I mis-applied you Willa :redface:. I meant that the influence poured into the root was whitewashed and dangerous and doesn't go away. Didn't Paul echo our Lord's sentiments by saying:

"A little leven spoils the whole whatever"?


- 1st Corinthians 5:6; (Matthew 13:33; 16:6)

And it does when congregations are told to take the rough with the smooth and to treat both as clean and holy, when the rough is so intentionallyly rough. Isn't that hypocrisy - assuming a false appearance of virtue? (Luke 13:2)

That's why I said if people do turn away from religions, the poison poured into their roots by the adversary has no effect on them - they keep away from the Great Apostasy. It does seem a pity discarding all the good intentions behind the church, then again leaven does what leaven does - but people take their own good intentions with them, have a look on the board! True, plenty stay with their church and withstand the assault, but those who do leave don't need to be on their guard - it's a different sort of protection. And our Friends in the Heavens know which are good hearts just wanting to worship in peace, wherever they stay, and which is the one who has done the poisoning.

At least here on the board is free from doctrines :cheer: - there's no root to poison so easily, we're not induced to treat bad as good, and there's no shortage of spirituality here either.

Acts5v29

A real dog of satan!

Wick, what the Message lacks in accuracy, it makes up for in colour.

Arch in Greek means first, chief, leader.
Archaeopteryx, archangel, archenemy, archrival, monarch, plutarch.

It comes from the word beginning.

"En arche en ho logos"
"In beginning was the word".

If you want to turn a Greek word into the opposite meaning, you put a infront of the word.

Tome to cut. atome = uncut. As in uncut time.
1 Corinthians 15:52.
"We shall be changed in uncut time" atomo. Sometimes translated instantly etc.
This idea of something being uncuttable by the Greeks, lead to the adoption of the word Atom. Something that people thought could not be cut, and is in a way true because once split it does not bear any characteristics of the original element.
abussos = abyss, unfathomed, bottomless, bussos meaning bottom.
amorphos = unshaped, without morphology, morphos meaning shape.
apatheia = apathy, without pathos (passion). Pathology is the study of things that cause suffering, so someone apathetic is not concerned about suffering.

So the Greeks put the letter A in front of a word to make the meaning the opposite. (We use in, im, un, il, etc. inedible, impolite, undeniable, illegal).
For the Greeks the only problem is when the word already begins with A.
Then they put an before the word.
Hence someone without a Leader or Ruler, whom I presume in the text above is considered to be Jesus Christ, would be an anarchist: unlead by Jesus or leaderless.

Well the Message Bible is very loose but not without humour.

You mean, as in Aardvark .. :bubblegum::whistle: .. the diametric antecedent of the diurnal, above ground mammal commonly known as Ardvark?