03-23-2009, 05:26 AM
How To Treat A Disfellowshipped Person.
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
03-23-2009, 05:27 AM
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
03-23-2009, 07:00 AM
Notice who their quote in 2 John is really talking about:
7 Because, many have strayed [back] into the world and won’t admit that Jesus the Anointed One came in the flesh. And these who have strayed are the Antichrists.
8 Watch out for yourselves, so you don’t destroy the things we’ve worked [so hard] on. Then you can receive your full reward. 9 But all those who run ahead and don’t remain in the teaching of the Anointed One don’t have God. Yet, whoever sticks with this teaching has both the Father and the Son.
10 Now, if anyone comes to you and doesn’t bring this teaching, don’t welcome him into your homes or even greet him; 11 because, whoever greets him shares in the wicked things he does.
Strange that they missed this point (that John was writing about how to treat the antichrists). It's sad that they are willing to misapply the scriptures to work out their hatred.
Also, regarding their instructions to shun family members, notice Jesus' words at Matthew 15:6-9, which say, ‘So, [you are really saying] that [you] shouldn’t honor [your] parents at all. And when you do this, you are nullifying the Word of God with your traditions. You hypocrites! How well Isaiah prophesied about you when he said, These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. It’s a waste for them to keep worshiping me, because they preach the teachings of men as commandments.’
There are no Bible instructions which specifically deal with how to treat errant family members, but many that show the need to maintain strong family bonds. So, yes; they are hypocrites who follow the teachings of men as commandments.
7 Because, many have strayed [back] into the world and won’t admit that Jesus the Anointed One came in the flesh. And these who have strayed are the Antichrists.
8 Watch out for yourselves, so you don’t destroy the things we’ve worked [so hard] on. Then you can receive your full reward. 9 But all those who run ahead and don’t remain in the teaching of the Anointed One don’t have God. Yet, whoever sticks with this teaching has both the Father and the Son.
10 Now, if anyone comes to you and doesn’t bring this teaching, don’t welcome him into your homes or even greet him; 11 because, whoever greets him shares in the wicked things he does.
Strange that they missed this point (that John was writing about how to treat the antichrists). It's sad that they are willing to misapply the scriptures to work out their hatred.
Also, regarding their instructions to shun family members, notice Jesus' words at Matthew 15:6-9, which say, ‘So, [you are really saying] that [you] shouldn’t honor [your] parents at all. And when you do this, you are nullifying the Word of God with your traditions. You hypocrites! How well Isaiah prophesied about you when he said, These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. It’s a waste for them to keep worshiping me, because they preach the teachings of men as commandments.’
There are no Bible instructions which specifically deal with how to treat errant family members, but many that show the need to maintain strong family bonds. So, yes; they are hypocrites who follow the teachings of men as commandments.
03-23-2009, 07:08 AM
One could reason that the phrase "...can no longer have spiritual fellowship with..." an unrepentent sinner disqualifies the WatchTower's own license to publish this article.
03-23-2009, 08:07 AM
And regarding their use of Romans 16:17 (not listed in this article) to show why they should disfellowship "apostates," notice how other Bibles render this scripture:
American King James Version
Now I beseech you, brothers, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.
American Standard Version
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which ye learned: and turn away from them.
Bible in Basic English
Now, it is my desire, brothers, that you will take note of those who are causing division and trouble among you, quite against the teaching which was given to you: and keep away from them.
In Greek this verse reads: 'παÏακαλω δε υμας αδελφοι σκοπειν τους τας διχοστασιας και τα σκανδαλα παÏα την διδαχην ην υμεις εμαθετε ποιουντας και εκκλινετε απ αυτων,' or, 'I/beg but you, brothers, to keep/an/eye/on (gr. skopein - pronounced skop-eh-een) those the divisions and stumblers beside the teaching which you learned making, and decline (gr. ekklenete - pronounced ek-klen-et-eh) from them.'
No disfellowshipping implied.
American King James Version
Now I beseech you, brothers, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.
American Standard Version
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which ye learned: and turn away from them.
Bible in Basic English
Now, it is my desire, brothers, that you will take note of those who are causing division and trouble among you, quite against the teaching which was given to you: and keep away from them.
In Greek this verse reads: 'παÏακαλω δε υμας αδελφοι σκοπειν τους τας διχοστασιας και τα σκανδαλα παÏα την διδαχην ην υμεις εμαθετε ποιουντας και εκκλινετε απ αυτων,' or, 'I/beg but you, brothers, to keep/an/eye/on (gr. skopein - pronounced skop-eh-een) those the divisions and stumblers beside the teaching which you learned making, and decline (gr. ekklenete - pronounced ek-klen-et-eh) from them.'
No disfellowshipping implied.
03-23-2009, 09:27 AM
When you have to modify and twist scriptures to justify your bad deeds, something is very wrong. However, mankind has been doing that since the beginning.
03-23-2009, 09:56 AM
(:rant:This ends up in a rant - so if you don't want to hear it, don't read it!;))
1 Corinthians 5
Immorality Rebuked
1I t is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
In the above verses is it not clear that Paul was not making sweeping statements, but a particular judgement against a particular man - one who had taken his father's wife? Then in verse 11 he enlarges the scope of what is unacceptable Christian conduct - immorality, covetousness, idolatry, reviler, drunkard, swindler. (do we see "anyone who has a different view from the GB of JW's?" Hhmmm, no.) In his second letter to the new Christians in Cornith, he then adds forgiveness and comfort to that man's correction(punishment) -
2 Corinthians 2:5 But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree--in order not to say too much--to all of you.
6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority,
7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.
8 Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.
9 For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things.
10 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ,
11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
It's a huge point that these Corinthians were brand-spanking-new believers, formerly pagans. Paul was giving them instructions that to most of us are a 'given'. *sigh*
Funny(not) how the WT ignores the true Bible counsel in order to promote their own doctrine of hate. They never mention that 2 Cor. scripture, even though it has direct bearing on the issue and reasons for expulsion from the congregation.
The law of the Christ is LOVE. How Satan must rejoice when we think so much of ourselves that we stoop to hating our brothers and sisters of our same faith.:cry: And being disfellowshipped for years without forgiveness from their brethren has driven some to such deep sorrow and feelings of unworthiness - and pushed them to suicide... It's a travesty of true justice held up high on the WatchTower scales of acceptability! If only they were really upholding "the teaching of the Christ" - none of us would be here! The degree of legality in their teachings is what is truly anti-Christ. :rant:
There is no reconciliation to be had while they still demand obedience to every utterance of the GB, while ignoring the blinding truth that the Bible really teaches. If you don't believe the GB is the F&DS and maintain 'loyalty' to their doctrines, then you are lumped in with the worst offenders against Christ and doomed to apostatehood forever - for there is no repentance from 'independent thinking' - especially when it uncovers their lies. Oh well.:whistle:
1 Corinthians 5
Immorality Rebuked
1I t is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
In the above verses is it not clear that Paul was not making sweeping statements, but a particular judgement against a particular man - one who had taken his father's wife? Then in verse 11 he enlarges the scope of what is unacceptable Christian conduct - immorality, covetousness, idolatry, reviler, drunkard, swindler. (do we see "anyone who has a different view from the GB of JW's?" Hhmmm, no.) In his second letter to the new Christians in Cornith, he then adds forgiveness and comfort to that man's correction(punishment) -
2 Corinthians 2:5 But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree--in order not to say too much--to all of you.
6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority,
7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.
8 Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.
9 For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things.
10 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ,
11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
It's a huge point that these Corinthians were brand-spanking-new believers, formerly pagans. Paul was giving them instructions that to most of us are a 'given'. *sigh*
Funny(not) how the WT ignores the true Bible counsel in order to promote their own doctrine of hate. They never mention that 2 Cor. scripture, even though it has direct bearing on the issue and reasons for expulsion from the congregation.
The law of the Christ is LOVE. How Satan must rejoice when we think so much of ourselves that we stoop to hating our brothers and sisters of our same faith.:cry: And being disfellowshipped for years without forgiveness from their brethren has driven some to such deep sorrow and feelings of unworthiness - and pushed them to suicide... It's a travesty of true justice held up high on the WatchTower scales of acceptability! If only they were really upholding "the teaching of the Christ" - none of us would be here! The degree of legality in their teachings is what is truly anti-Christ. :rant:
There is no reconciliation to be had while they still demand obedience to every utterance of the GB, while ignoring the blinding truth that the Bible really teaches. If you don't believe the GB is the F&DS and maintain 'loyalty' to their doctrines, then you are lumped in with the worst offenders against Christ and doomed to apostatehood forever - for there is no repentance from 'independent thinking' - especially when it uncovers their lies. Oh well.:whistle:
Quote:
It seems that some in association with the early Corinthian congregation were disregarding Paul's authority, looking at him according to what he appeared to be in the flesh, and neglecting to take into account his special commission from Christ. Today, too, there are those who, by their independent thinking, question Christ's ability to have and use on the earth a specially appointed governing body of imperfect humans, to whom he has entrusted all the Kingdom interests or "belongings" on earth. (Matt. 24:45-47) When such independent thinkers receive counsel and direction based on the Bible, they incline to the thought, 'This is only from fleshly men, so it is up to me to decide whether to accept it or not.' - The Watchtower, 6/1/1966, page 324, "Intellectual Freedom or Captivity to the Christ?"
Quote:
"Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person(where are the scriptural references for this one? What? - there ARE NONE?:thinking:) with whom the badness is inseparably linked." Watchtower 1961 July 15 p.420
Quote:
"Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God's law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof. … Satan's influence through the disfellowshiped member of the family will be to cause the other member or members of the family who are in the truth to join the disfellowshiped member in his course or in his position toward God's organization. To do this would be disastrous, and so the faithful family member must recognize and conform to the disfellowship order. How would or could this be done while living under the same roof or in personal, physical contact daily with the disfellowshiped? In this way: By refusing to have religious relationship with the disfellowshiped." Watchtower 1952 November 15 p.703
Darn that old 'law of the land'! It sounds like they'd rather go back to the Mosaic Law(without the Christ) that spells out physical death for us all -
Deut. 17:12 "The man who acts presumptuously by not listening to the priest who stands there to serve the LORD your God, nor to the judge, that man shall die; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel.
13 "Then all the people will hear and be afraid, and will not act presumptuously again.
Should we ignore, then, 'the testing of the spirits'? "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
How clever they are to publish their own Bible, revised to uphold their doctrines, so that the one 'testing' might be mislead by those false prophets! :angry:
After yesterday's study of the WT articles on being "Born Again" I am so angry over their blatently dishonest and crooked teachings that lead Jesus' sheep so far astray...:crybaby:
:(
03-24-2009, 12:28 AM
Nowadays there are laws being enacted against Hate Speech. Maybe one of these days the WT will be charged with hate speech for publishing material of this sort.
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
03-24-2009, 02:26 AM
JWHVACR Wrote:
Also, regarding their instructions to shun family members, notice Jesus' words at Matthew 15:6-9, which say, ‘So, [you are really saying] that [you] shouldn’t honor [your] parents at all. And when you do this, you are nullifying the Word of God with your traditions. You hypocrites! How well Isaiah prophesied about you when he said, These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. It’s a waste for them to keep worshiping me, because they preach the teachings of men as commandments.’
There are no Bible instructions which specifically deal with how to treat errant family members, but many that show the need to maintain strong family bonds. So, yes; they are hypocrites who follow the teachings of men as commandments.
There are no Bible instructions which specifically deal with how to treat errant family members, but many that show the need to maintain strong family bonds. So, yes; they are hypocrites who follow the teachings of men as commandments.
Hi Jim,
What I find particularly disgusting is that this gag order is even worse than the Talmudic laws of parental neglect could ever be. Mark's account is somewhat more cryptic and to the point:
"Adroitly YOU set aside the commandment of God in order to retain YOUR tradition. For example, Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ But YOU men say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother: “Whatever I have by which you may get benefit from me is corban, (that is, a gift dedicated to God, [my comment: This is one of the only places the word "dedicate" is used and it applies to that which was dedicated to the neglect of mother and father] )â€â€™â€” YOU men no longer let him do a single thing for his father or his mother [my comment: we are asked to 'dedicate' our lives to the God and the WT. Then if our parents are ever DF'd we are to repeat the same Pharisaical neglect toward our parents as Talmudic tradition called for], and thus YOU make the word of God invalid by YOUR tradition which YOU handed down. . . .(Mark 7:9-13)
Affection,
sw
03-25-2009, 08:37 AM
Bangalore Wrote:
Nowadays there are laws being enacted against Hate Speech. Maybe one of these days the WT will be charged with hate speech for publishing material of this sort.
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
We're incapable of managing hate as people express it - only the foolish would think of giving it holy prominence.
On the murder of Uriah the Hittite, the Prophet Nathan proclaimed to King David the notion: "live by the sword, die by the sword". What he had done to Uriah by taking his wife and killing him would befall David's own house (2nd Samuel 12:1-12).
Our Father Jehovah has never acted in a bad way against His people - or against modern Christians - but whatever they in their foolishness declare as "justice" and use unjustly against others He uses as "justice" against them, so their own justice condemns them.
Wouldn't we all rather the WatchTower turned around, but until then perhaps their refusal to speak to those they disapprove of is what we should give back to them - as unworthy of consideration on the walk to life. For a self-declared "prophet", that would be a bitter pill to swallow.
So now WatchTower - or whichever church - aside, the way ahead is care for the worshippers. If their congregations become plundered and the captives released, it is only what has befallen disapproved captors - like Egypt - in the scriptures. Nobody wants all that strife and contention - just for worship to be fine and attractive again, as as our Father and our Lord deserve.
Acts5v29
03-25-2009, 10:05 AM
They have made the word of God invalid, and have gone beyond what has been written. Matthew 23 is a good reminder of what we, and others, have been dealing with.They will get their just reward. :read: Makes me wonder if they can sleep at night.:thinking:
Agape,
Grateful :giverose:
Agape,
Grateful :giverose:
03-26-2009, 12:58 AM
Something interesting is that Paul does not say what the penalty is for NOT shunning someone. Does he say to also "disfellowship" the one who speaks with the disfellowshipped person? Didn't think so.
Sometimes the intent and spirit of the scriptures is lost by those legalistic individuals looking for ways to maintain control.
:readthis:
Sometimes the intent and spirit of the scriptures is lost by those legalistic individuals looking for ways to maintain control.
:readthis:
03-26-2009, 03:24 AM
Something interesting is that Paul does not say what the penalty is for NOT shunning someone. Does he say to also "disfellowship" the one who speaks with the disfellowshipped person? Didn't think so.
Sometimes the intent and spirit of the scriptures is lost by those legalistic individuals looking for ways to maintain control.
:readthis:
[/quote]
:hibye:Hi John, I so agree with your comment. No penalty there. Well John,fisherofmen and I the way are in this very situation, our son Manirus and Bruisedreed were railroaded,and disfellowshiped for not going to there kangaroo court,for aledgedlly associating with a disfellowshiped person.They were helping a mother and a son in distress.Being who they are they could not turn their backs on them. Not being able to get them on this issue they kicked them out on the grounds of so called loose conduct for not showing up at these kangaroo meetings.I and my husband have the greatest LOVE and RESPECT for our children,and we would never turn our backs on them.They both have LOVE for JEHOVAH and his dear son JESUS.They also put into practice the law of LOVE for others,and we stand behind them for that.Enough bragging of my kids,but we are proud of them for doing the right thing. Your sister in the faith Chris:
Sometimes the intent and spirit of the scriptures is lost by those legalistic individuals looking for ways to maintain control.
:readthis:
[/quote]
:hibye:Hi John, I so agree with your comment. No penalty there. Well John,fisherofmen and I the way are in this very situation, our son Manirus and Bruisedreed were railroaded,and disfellowshiped for not going to there kangaroo court,for aledgedlly associating with a disfellowshiped person.They were helping a mother and a son in distress.Being who they are they could not turn their backs on them. Not being able to get them on this issue they kicked them out on the grounds of so called loose conduct for not showing up at these kangaroo meetings.I and my husband have the greatest LOVE and RESPECT for our children,and we would never turn our backs on them.They both have LOVE for JEHOVAH and his dear son JESUS.They also put into practice the law of LOVE for others,and we stand behind them for that.Enough bragging of my kids,but we are proud of them for doing the right thing. Your sister in the faith Chris:
03-26-2009, 11:42 AM
John Wrote:
Something interesting is that Paul does not say what the penalty is for NOT shunning someone. Does he say to also "disfellowship" the one who speaks with the disfellowshipped person? Didn't think so.
Sometimes the intent and spirit of the scriptures is lost by those legalistic individuals looking for ways to maintain control.
:readthis:
Sometimes the intent and spirit of the scriptures is lost by those legalistic individuals looking for ways to maintain control.
:readthis:
Quite agree brother - spirit and control are mutually exclusive.
When a religion rejects someone it intends that final sting should last a long time . But turn your back on their control and it has absolutely no power over you - it doesn't exist. And as in the cases of all fine hearts - BR and Manirus an example - it is the religion which has opposed God's spirit in those it hurts, and not the other way around. No need to feel fearful or dirty before God - the guilt lies where it clearly lies, the spirit shows reflected from around those on whom it rests.
Perhaps we could use a topic on surviving disfellowshipping - there are plenty of pitfalls in the survival process, and plenty of ways to stem all that horrible intentional disfellowshipping pain too.
Acts5v29
03-26-2009, 01:37 PM
Acts5v29 Wrote:
Perhaps we could use a topic on surviving disfellowshipping - there are plenty of pitfalls in the survival process, and plenty of ways to stem all that horrible intentional disfellowshipping pain too.
Or perhaps a thread on those who didn't survive or about therapists who are treating JW's in the aftermath and how many antidepressants and anti-anxiety pills are being dispensed compared to the rest of the world. Reporting news on the outside world is one thing but through rose-coloured glasses is quite another.
"Oh my! They're going to a therapist now? Well no wonder they're disfellowshipped. They can't have God's spirit and be seeing a therapist! As for antidepressants, well, Jehovah's witnesses don't get depressed!"
I wonder how many therapists are hearing the good news since Witnesses don't need therapy? ... :funnyface:
Bible study anyone? Only if its through one-way glass. We don't like mirrors.:whistle:
sw