Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Seeing as how there is a lot of talk about who is in the New Covenant I decided that it was time for me to register and put in the information that I have found through the Bible.

First of all there are several issues that show that the WTBTS view of only 144,000 going to heaven is false. It can be seen from the following...

Rev 14

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders.

The above in bold shows that the elders are a different group altogether than the 144,000. This would indicate that they are a seperate group in heaven. I showed this to a Witness who came to my door and he could not get around it.

Rev 19:1

1After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:
"Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

Again this shows that the Great Crowd is in Heaven, not on earth. We know that this is not angels due to the fact that angels do not need saving.


But the information that is the clincher is the following.

It was always understood that the New Covenant was established in 33 AD when Christ had the 12 Apostles partake of the emblems. This is incorrect as Paul shows in the following...

7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the [b]covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

The above in Galatians chapter 3 shows that the Covenant of the Gospel was established with ABRAHAM! He was the one whom that Gospel was preached to first. From this is shows that the New Covenant was brought into existance before the Law Covenant.

That is why Abraham is mentioned as one in Hebrews who was getting into heaven.

Hebrews 11:13-15

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one

He had the Gospel preached to him in advance. Since Abraham believed God and the Gospel is based off of belief and not works, he gains the reward of faith. That is why he is called the father of all those believing.

This in adition to the fact that the Other Sheep are the Gentiles (due to the fact that Jesus had NO gentile followers while on earth so the little flock has to be the jews) it is clear that the reward of eternal life is in heaven.

I hope this helps.

To confirm that others see this the same way I do consider what was written about the New Coventant at http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/je...venant.asp

Some features of the new covenant
• It is primarily made with the nation of Israel (Jer. 31:31)
• It offers forgiveness of sins to many (Mt. 26:28)
• Jesus is its mediator (Heb. 9:15)
• Its work of forgiveness covers those under the old covenant and before (9:15)
• It is everlasting (13:20)
• It confirms the promises made in Eden, to Abraham and to David (Rom. 15:8)•
It preceded the old covenant by 430 years, but was not ratified until Christ came (Gal. 3:17)

• Today, believers enter the new covenant by baptism, which associates them with the sacrifice of Christ (Rom. 6:3-6; Gal. 3:27-29; Ps. 50:5)
• Those in covenant relationship with God should have God’s laws written in their hearts and minds, and walk in faith to the Kingdom (Heb. 8:10; Jas. 2:20-22).


So apperently other Christain groups (I am not affilitated with the one above by the way.) see that the New Covenant is acutally older than the Old Covenant. Since the New Covenant is based off of belief that would mean that ANY BELIEVING IT PAST OR FUTURE would get the reward from it.

Hi Elem! and welcome!
Good points about Abraham and others of faith prior to Pentecost, as long as we remember that the New Cov. was not ratified until Pentecost by the mediator, Christ. Still, those of faith dieing before Pentacost 33, will benefit the same as us.

Of course, the WTS counter to this is Math 11:11. Here, I believe, Jesus is just saying that those who are alive and living, by faith, are living the Kingdom while they are alive. John the baptiser was dead at the time and so, like Abraham, was not as well off as those who were alive to see the fulfillment of the promise, the Christ. :heartbeat:

Well that is an interestesting point but the problem is that they assume that Jesus was using John the Baptist in assocation with everyone.

The Jews at that time were not aware that there were two covenants and as a result John was under the convenant of the law like all of the jews were. They fail to mention that Abraham was BEFORE the law covenant by faith. So Jesus is in effect saying that a person who is under the law of faith (thereby a child of the kingdom) was greater than John. Also note that John was not dead at the time. John followed the law but was unaware of the law of faith. As a result it has nothing to do with whether John went to heaven or not.

It also states that is lesser person in the Kingdom of Heaven IS greater than he IS NOT WILL BE. So it seems that Jesus was saying that the kingdom was already underway in his day.

Well that is an interestesting point but the problem is that they assume that Jesus was using John the Baptist in assocation with everyone.

The Jews at that time were not aware that there were two covenants and as a result John was under the convenant of the law like all of the jews were. They fail to mention that Abraham was BEFORE the law covenant by faith. So Jesus is in effect saying that a person who is under the law of faith (thereby a child of the kingdom) was greater than John.


But they fail to mention one tiny little issue...

John was not dead at the time! According to the Bible he was still in prison when Jesus said this. I mean, you do have to DIE in order to get into the Kingdom of the Heavens right? After all flesh and blood cannot enter into it.



It also states in Matthew that is lesser person in the Kingdom of Heaven IS greater than he IS and NOT WILL BE. So it seems that Jesus was saying that the kingdom was already underway in his day.

By the way , thanks for the kind welcome!

I don't believe the "elders" are a group of people, but the teachings of the elders of ancient authors of the old testament, whose writings helped to form those who were of the anointed.

as to your point on the Great Multitude being in heaven... Kudos... I agree.

As for your thinking above... that is quite a twist to have the new come before the old... the New Covenant is in fact, the New Law Covenant. The covenant spoken of that was not done away with by the establishment of the Law Covenant was the Oath Bound Covenant God made with Abraham in [b]Genesis 12:1-3 and ratified in 6 other places (Gen. 12:6,7; 13:14-17; chapter 15; chapter 17; 21:12-13; and 22:22:16-18)

Hundreds of years after Abraham Jehovah spoke that the New Covenant was still future and that it would be made with both the houses of Israel. It is the covenant (not of sacrifice offering a spiritual reward) that will command obedience and give restored human life to Adam and his lost children. THe Church of Christ, the anointed, are to be with Jesus on His throne... to live and reign with him for a thousand years mediating the New Covenant. The anointed did not have a covenant mediated with them at all.. they were under the Sarah feature of the Abrahamic Covenant that promised the seed of promise that was Isaac and that typed Christ. The world will get their blessing with the New Covenant in the resurrection THROUGH the mediator who achieved that particular status by being faithful in this life unto death... and that covenant of sacrifice they kept was NOT mediated with them... it was advocated. "We (the church) have an advocate with the Father" If we do not know the difference between a mediator and an advocate, then we should consult a dictionary... preferably a Greek Lexicon.

The New Covenant is yet future... it is not the strait and narrow way of Matthew 7:13-14... it is the highway of Isaiah 35:8-10 and it will uplift mankind... and make all things clear to them Note the difference of those versus as opposed to being strait (trialsome) and narrow (difficult). It is level and all obstacles are removed from the path including the lions of vice and the greatest Lion of all (1 Peter 5:8)... also see Isaiah 62:10... the stones gathered out. Under this covenant Zeph 3:9 will be fulfilled as well as Revelation 22:17.

I'm willing to take a wait and see approach...

:heartbeat:

Hi Elemental

Welcome to the forum! :thumbsup: And thanks for sharing your research.

I have some points I would like to raise, where I don't quite agree with your reasoning.

Absolutely, I agree. The 24 elders cannot be the 144,000 because of this.

I'm not sure Revelation 19:1 shows this. This scripture is simply using a simile, or comparison:

"After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven..."

Why should I believe this is THE great multitude of Revelation 7? The other "great multitude" that is in heaven is the ANGELS.

I think we risk making a logical leap saying that A sounds like B, and therefore A IS B.

The covenant established with Abraham we call the "Abrahamic covenant". Paul says in verse 29: "Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise."

Paul's argument is that it is "those who believe [or "adhere to faith"] are children of Abraham".

However, the New Covenant was not the Abrahamic Covenant.

In fact, I would even go beyond many here and say that the New Covenant was exclusively between Jesus and his 12 apostles:

"However, you are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials, and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:28-30)

Compare this with his earlier statement, that he said to Peter:

"Truly I say to you, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mathew 19:28)

Clearly the fact that there are "twelve thrones" proves that Jesus was talking there to his 12 apostles, and since one of them later betrayed him, he did not speak of 12 thrones in Luke 22, but still the 11 that "have stuck with me in my trials" would be judges of the tribes of Israel.

In other words, the New Covenant was something Jesus exclusviely offered to the 12 apostles - namely, to sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel, in the re-creation.

Christians in general are not in the New Covenant for that reason. On the other hand, they do enjoy the benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Edit: Perhaps I should clarify. There are several covenants, but the one specifically mentioned in Luke 22:28-30 and Mathew 19:28 is exclusive to the apostles. Perhaps we should call it something else - the Apostolic Covenant. There is a New Covenant (as per Jeremiah), but in the above two scriptures, Jesus is making a covenant with the apostles.

I don't know whether this is saying they wanted to go to heaven, though. The kingdom of God is heavenly, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is in heaven. For instance, consider New Jerusalem in Rev 21:2 - it explicitly comes down out of heaven!

And later on, the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)

So the origins of the kingdom are from heaven, but that doesn't mean we (or Abraham or anyone) are necessarily going to heaven to be in it.

Even the classic scripture about there being many abodes in the Father's residence (John 14:2), Jesus says he will come again, leaving it ambiguous as to where they will be: "Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be." (vs 3)

The fact, is Jesus said he would come again and receive them home to himself... where will he be when he comes again? :D

Howdy Interpretum

Re: "...the New Covenant was something Jesus exclusviely offered to the 12 apostles"

Is the New Covenant to be confused with what has come to be known as a Covenant/arrangement for a Kingdom?

The New Covenant that Jesus talked about at Luke 22:20...(...“This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.), cannot be the same arrangement as Luke 22: 28 - 30.

The arrangement for sitting with him (being with him more intimately),was an arrangement between him and those that had stuck by him ,whereas the New Covenant was between man and God with Jesus as the mediator.

Regarding the New Covenant Jesus commanded..."Keep doing this in remembrance of me". The arrangement for Jesus close followers to be with him more intimately is only associated with the New Covenant in that those that would be more intimately with our Master would be in/part of the New Covenant....imo.

Christian love,

gogh

(edited for (hopefully) more clarity...grin)

Just when I think I know something for sure - I learn I was wrong! And it keeps happening, so maybe I'm on a learning 'curve'! Lol.

So, Bro. Interp - it would seem that, by your reasoning, no one should be doing this 'memorial' supper thing with the bread and the wine. If the new covenant is only for Jesus' disciples to do until his return - and you think he returned in 70ad, right? - then no one should be still doing it and it's become somewhat of a ritual without meaning, or purpose...?

What about the entire spiritual nation of Israel being kings and priests? We Gentile believers are now spiritual jews, are we not?

I am for sure confused - that's the one and only thing I know for sure right now... :huh:

Love, Willa

Elem, I did not know that John was still alive when Jesus stated Math 11:11. How can we prove this, because it changes the understanding completely?

Hi Folks

Sorry, I edited my post later because I realized what I was saying was a bit confusing, but Gogh I think nailed it. He said:

Yes :D

I think the confusion is because we tend to lump it all together into one thing.

As gogh correctly pointed out, there is a New Covenant, in reference to the bread and wine - thanks for clarifying, gogh.

However, he also made a covenant for a kingdom exclusively with the apostles, to sit on 12 thrones. I think many of us lump it into the New Covenant, when I'd suggest it is something he only made with his apostles - that's why I suggest it should be called the Apostolic Covenant ;)

Willa, you asked:

Yes, the Christian nation is a kingdom of kings and priests. All I'm saying is, the words in Luke 22:28-30 and Mathew 19:28 were specifically for the apostles... twelve apostles, twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. This was the Apostolic Covenant, to coin a phrase.

We are spiritual Jews, but when Jesus said those words to the apostles, he was surely speaking of the literal nation of Israel. They were themselves Jewish, so wouldn't that make them in the best place to judge their own resurrected nation!

Well, I do think he came in or around 70AD, but only to the Jewish nation as he promised, not to the world.

In Mathew 19:28, the apostles receive their kingdom "in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne". This is the same as Mathew 25:31, "when the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne". I suspect this "re-creation" hasn't happened yet, but is referring to events after Armageddon (ie. Revelation 19 and onwards).

I still believe there is a future coming of Jesus, but this time to the whole world, rather than just to the Jewish nation in 70AD - I hope that clarifies!

Good question...

The answer is by looking at the rest of Mt chatper 11 in context...

1After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.[a]
2When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples 3to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"

4Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosyare cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. 6Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."

7As John's disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 8If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings' palaces. 9Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10This is the one about whom it is written:
" 'I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.'[c] 11I tell you the truth:


As we all know verse 11 I have not put it in as it has already been quoted. Nevertheless according to verses 3 and 4 John was still alive for Jesus told John's deciples to [b]Go back and report to John what you hear and see Showing that he was still alive at the time.

The point is this that Mt 11:11 cannot mean what the WTBTS says it does.

While I agree that Jesus did return in 70 (as Josephus shows, I am a preterist as well) I would respectfully disagree about who partakes.

I think based off of my understanding of scriptures that all should partake. I currently do not feel that there is an earthly hope but am too tired to go into why at the moment. :)

Greetings brother Interpretum, may the grace of our God Jehovah and the love and peace of His son Jesus our Savior be with you always:

Dear brother, you said,


I don't know whether this is saying they wanted to go to heaven, though. The kingdom of God is heavenly, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is in heaven. For instance, consider New Jerusalem in Rev 21:2 - it explicitly comes down out of heaven!

And later on, the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)

So the origins of the kingdom are from heaven, but that doesn't mean we (or Abraham or anyone) are necessarily going to heaven to be in it.

Even the classic scripture about there being many abodes in the Father's residence (John 14:2), Jesus says he will come again, leaving it ambiguous as to where they will be: "Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be." (vs 3)

The fact, is Jesus said he would come again and receive them home to himself... where will he be when he comes again?

I also believe that the "Kingdom Of The Heavens" will be here on earth. Several thoughts force me to believe this way which are as follows.

We are taught by Jesus to pray for the Kingdom to come and its effects to be on earth as it is in heaven.
When David sat on the throne it was said that he was "actually sitting on God's throne". In the most Holy, Jehovah was said to actually be present.
In addition, Jesus said as you mention above, he would not drink of the vine again [/i]until[/i] he drinks with them in paradise. Also, When Satan is let loose, he surrounds the camp of the Holy ones, which obviously is on earth. Too, the apostles and the 144,000 are told that they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel, which I believe will not be in heaven but resurrected right here on earth.

Jehovah purposed to fill the earth with righteous mankind, and when that got thwarted he put into action the means by which he could make that happen. In doing so, he chose the Nation of Israel to bring forth that savior. He promised Abraham that the nations would be blessed by his seed, (Jesus). And the Nation that would bring that seed forth were offered if they kept God's Covenant that [/i]they[/i][/i] would become a nation of kings and priests, to rule where? Obviously on earth.

There are so many other thoughts I have on this with numerous scriptural references that to me seem very clear as to where the kingdom is actually set up, but then that is [/i]my[/i] belief.

May you be well my brother, and please continue in your encouraging and insightful posts, Christian love brother Fred

Hello.

I saw your thoughts and I felt that I would respond. I could of course be wrong like anyone else so I would not take this too seriously. :cheer:


Greetings brother Interpretum, may the grace of our God Jehovah and the love and peace of His son Jesus our Savior be with you always:

Dear brother, you said,


I don't know whether this is saying they wanted to go to heaven, though. The kingdom of God is heavenly, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is in heaven. For instance, consider New Jerusalem in Rev 21:2 - it explicitly comes down out of heaven!

And later on, the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)

So the origins of the kingdom are from heaven, but that doesn't mean we (or Abraham or anyone) are necessarily going to heaven to be in it.

Response. The scripture show that Abraham gained a heavenly reward as Jesus said that he would be in the heavens in addition Hebrews shows that Abraham was reaching out for a heavenly country. I would say all of that would indicate that he was in heaven.

Even the classic scripture about there being many abodes in the Father's residence (John 14:2), Jesus says he will come again, leaving it ambiguous as to where they will be: "Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be." (vs 3)

The fact, is Jesus said he would come again and receive them home to himself... where will he be when he comes again?

I also believe that the "Kingdom Of The Heavens" will be here on earth. Several thoughts force me to believe this way which are as follows.

We are taught by Jesus to pray for the Kingdom to come and its effects to be on earth as it is in heaven.
When David sat on the throne it was said that he was "actually sitting on God's throne". In the most Holy, Jehovah was said to actually be present.
In addition, Jesus said as you mention above, he would not drink of the vine again [/i]until[/i] he drinks with them in paradise. Also, When Satan is let loose, he surrounds the camp of the Holy ones, which obviously is on earth. Too, the apostles and the 144,000 are told that they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel, which I believe will not be in heaven but resurrected right here on earth.


Response: the issue with this is that Jesus drank of the vine on the cross. I also never saw anywhere there it stated that he would drink of the vine with them in paradise but in the Kingdom of his Father.


Jehovah purposed to fill the earth with righteous mankind, and when that got thwarted he put into action the means by which he could make that happen. In doing so, he chose the Nation of Israel to bring forth that savior. He promised Abraham that the nations would be blessed by his seed, (Jesus). And the Nation that would bring that seed forth were offered if they kept God's Covenant that [/i]they[/i][/i] would become a nation of kings and priests, to rule where? Obviously on earth.


Response: I would have to respectfully disagree with this for while it does say that they would be a kingdom of priests it says in Revelation that they were bought from the earth. If they were to rule on earth why purchase them from it in the first place?

In addition the Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God at 1 Co chapter 15

While it is true that God's original purpose for the earth was for Adam and Eve to live on it, I would have to say that this is not the case any longer. Why? Because he gave the earth to the sons of men as a gift and in order to make the earth into a paradise he would have to take it back. It also states in Genesis that God would never again deal a blow to the earth as he had done in the flood but it never says that it was simply a promise of not bringing another flood but never again to deal a blow to earth.

There are so many other thoughts I have on this with numerous scriptural references that to me seem very clear as to where the kingdom is actually set up, but then that is [/i]my[/i] belief.

May you be well my brother, and please continue in your encouraging and insightful posts, Christian love brother Fred


Response: Again I am not opposed to the idea of a new earth, if that is truly what it is as the Greek word is land. I could see God creating another planet other than this one (after all, the word here being NEW earth)