Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

As we are all fully aware the Bible is full of Prophets who, when we look at the good books, have left us many many prophecies about what is to come upon God's earth.

This section asks if prophecy can prove that the Bible is authentic. And as Christians we put a lot of stock in these prophecies, after all, they are given by divine choice.

The problem:

Misinterpretation.

Most of us are not prophets, and due to our education have a set way that we think. At the same time, we see things happening that make us believe that the prophecies are coming to light. I for one find a lot of truth in Isiah's prophecy. He talks about things that fit into our modern life with perfect accuracy. I believe with all my heart that his prophecies are true ones, and divinely inspired.

My Question and Challenge:

We all know that God has given us prophecies, one of which is that Prophets would return to us. And that we would be presented with a False Prophet. But that does not make all prophets false ones. We are told to avoid divination: but there is a difference between divination and true prophecy. And there is a difference between prophecy (which seems to be written or spoken) and dreaming (which may, as we know, hold prophecies within metaphor) which we need an interpreter for. So, here is my question: If the prophecy in the Bible is coming to pass, where are the modern prophecies from our 'sons and daughters'? My challenge: What prophecies that are coming true (not by divination, but by 'holy books' and the such) prove their authenticity to prove the prophecies all ready given? Or proof that God's influence is seen in more than our own Bible?

I Think Hebrews 1 sums it up.

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

We have God's full Revelation to Man in His written word and through the Holy Spirit the abiltity to discern. There is no need for special people like the Prophets of old. The indwelling of the Spirit of God and the written word are all that is needed. Believers have that one great prophetic event to look forward to " The Return of THE KING OF KINGS "

Thx BB

Many of the prophets lived "dinner theater" to give a message to Israel. Even most that spoke of a future redeemer did so because of the fallen state of Israel at the time which required a redeemer. The language of the prophet so communicating was that of riddle.

If there were a prophet alive today to speak to the church concerning its condition, it is likely that he would be a cross-dressing goatherd.

In the language of bible riddles or "dinner theater", the male sees clearly, the female does not see clearly. Sheep are heavenly minded, and goats are earthly minded. So the church which should be male, chooses to not see clearly as it follows religious fads and "dresses itself as female" (hence the cross-dressing), and is earthly minded.

So even if there were modern prophets, they would have a primary message confronting the church rather than foretelling the future.

Judgment starts in the house of God.

Hi draka,

Here is the place in the Scripture that propably was in your mind:

Joel 2:27-32 (NWT)

27 And YOU people will have to know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Jehovah YOUR God and there is no other. And my people will not be ashamed to time indefinite.

28 “And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see. 29 And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit.

30 “And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. 32 And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.”

Even though apostle Peter applied this to the miracles at Pentecost in year 33. The place have plenty of evidence that it will happen once again much later, just a little time before the battle at Armageddon. There will be a special time period of 42 months or 3 and half years when the "woman" will be fed in the wilderness. I suppose the profecying and the pouring of God's spirit will occure then and there for all who fled to the wilderness. They will be fed spiritually in that way before the great battle at Armaggedon.

The sentence: "for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones" did not get any fulfillment in the first centry, so it must really have a fulfillment in the future.
This place once again assures me that God's people will be in Jerusalem. So there should happen great changes in Jerusalem. But we should not become impatient if it seems impossibe now. But we should have faith that it will happen, eventhough it could take decades of even more time.

At that time all true believers will get God's spirit in a particular way and prophecy according to Joel. But now since Pentecost 33 there occures anointing will God's spirit of some christians. And they would have gifts of the spirit until what is complete arrives.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.

So, the question is has that which is complete arrived? Some say that it refers to the Bible, 66 books of that collection.
Of course he who has no gifts of the spirit might like to think that the time of the gifts is gone. Just to justify himself.

But the gifts of the spirit that should be done away with are: tongues, knowledge, prophecy.
Paul also mentioned:
For example, to one there is given through the spirit speech of wisdom, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healings by that one spirit, 10 to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired utterances, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11 But all these operations the one and the same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectively just as it wills. -1 Corinthians 12:8-11 (NWT)

I would like to ask: Is the spirit of speech of wisdom, spirit of speech of knowledge and faith by spirit gone?

I would say, this continues to happen and has been in operation today. Have you been at a meeting and somebody have had a impressively good talk. It have propably been by the gift of the spirit. May be you your self have been witnessing and you have wondered how well you explained something about God's will, and you remembered places in the Scriptures and found then like by a miracle, was it not by the gift of speech and knowledge?

So, if we can have these gifts of spirit, why could we not get other gifts too? Just to pray and wait for them.

Why would God save instructions to meeting services about gifts of the spirit if these instructions were not valid any more?

The number of 66 books in the Bible witnesses against the idea that the Bible is what is complete. (The number of the evil beast is 666) The apostles did not use the word Bible, they talked about it as of the "scriptures". In the Revelation it is said that scrolls will be opened.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.-Revelation 20:12 (NWT)

I hope, dear draka, you got some answer to your question.

With brotherly love Jan

:coffeeread:

Hmmm. Now you can tell us what there is need of for the future.

I think you are walking on some SERIOUS faulty ground here. Its called PREDICTING the FUTURE by your BELIEFS. We don't KNOW the FINALE.

With Prayers, Debbie

Hi Jan

Many other translations do not suggest the escaped ones need to be in Jerusalem, but rather that deliverance would come to them...

"And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (KJV)

"And it hath come to pass, Every one who calleth in the name of Jehovah is delivered, For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there is an escape, As Jehovah hath said, And among the remnants whom Jehovah is calling!" (YNG)

"And it shall come to pass, [that] whoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (WEB)

The fact is, Christians in Jerusalem did indeed experience deliverance, an "escape", in 66AD, when they were able to "flee to the mountains" after observing Jesus' words.

As you correctly pointed out, Peter applied this prophecy to 33AD, and it came to completion by 66AD with the deliverance of the "remnant", the Jewish Christians who fled.

There is no need for it to be fulfilled again.

However, Joel 3 does talk about Jehovah returning and reversing [ashub ashib] the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, which has only taken place in recent times. So I'd suggest Joel 3 is definitely a modern-day prophecy, but Joel 2 was fulfilled long ago, in the period from 33-70AD.

Hi draka

When demonstrating the truth of the Bible, I prefer to rely on prophecies that we know for a CERTAINTY have been fulfilled, such as the words in Deuteronomy 28 about what would happen if the nation of Israel became unfaithful to God. This was fulfilled, to the letter.

I wouldn't personally use, say, Mathew 24 as proof, because (a) I believe it was a prophecy for the Jews and Christians of the 1st century, and (b) it is too ambiguous to be used as a "composite sign", given that every generation throughout history thinks they have been seeing that sign.

Hi interpretum,
I understand that you have difficulties to accept the idea that prophecies have ambiguous fullfillments or dubble-fullfillments. You would like the truth to be very simple. I agree that the truth is simple, but it is not extremly simple, but it is not extremely complex either.

If you want to come to a higher level of understanding, you should accept the fact that statements quite often are ambiguous, both in the Bible and in real life.

In Daniel 8:23 we can find a prophecy about a very intelligent future king, eventhough a bad king, but it is said that he is "understanding ambiguous sayings", (NWT). In the Swedish NWT the word ambiguous is translated like double-meaning.

The most common examlpes of ambiguous prophecies are maybe the prophecies about Messiah. He came about 2000 years ago, but many parts of the prophcies remained unfullfilled. That is why the Jews could not accept him, because they did not want or could not accept the fact that the prophecies have ambiguous fulfillments.

So I can not agree with you that Joel's prophecies are already completely fullfilled, neither do I agree with your understanding of Matthew 24.

With christian love
Jan

I prefer not to use the bible to prove the bible. It strikes me as slithgly ambiguous.

And I fully agree with your interpretation of Matthew 24, though the one I had in mind was Rev 12 in conjunction with coming signs of the end. Joel also spoke of it in his prophecies, meaning it might be more than simply Israel, at which point all of Rev. is for Israel, which I do not believe to be the case as it talks of "all nations".

Hi Jan

I'm not so sure the prophecies about the Messiah are "ambiguous".

Consider Isaiah 53, the suffering servant. All of these things were fulfilled unambiguosly in Jesus Christ:

(a) no desirable appearance (vs 2)
(b) despised and avoided by men (vs 3)
© meant for pains and acquainted with sickness (vs 3)
(d) he bore our sicknesses and pains (vs 4)
(e) viewed as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted (vs 4)
(f) pierced for their transgressions (vs 5)
(g) received wounds for their healing (vs 5)
(h) would not open his mouth when being brought before "shearers" (vs 7)
(i) Taken away (vs 8)
(j) Who will concern himself with his "generation? (vs 8)
(k) severed from the land of the living (vs 8)
(l) received stroke because of transgressions of the people (vs 8)
(m) buried with the wicked and rich, though he did no violence (vs 9)
(n) Jehovah took delight in crushing him (vs 10)
(o) His soul set as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days (vs 10)
(p) will bring a righteous standing to many people (vs 11)
(q) dealt a portion among the many (vs 12)

All of this was fulfilled in the life and death of Jesus Christ, his resurrection and his subsequent sitting at the right hand of God. This is the scripture which Philip partly used to convince the Ethiopian eunech about Jesus Christ. (Acts 8:26-35)

Similarly with the prophecy of Daniel 9 about "Messiah the Leader". As foretold, Messiah came, was cut off with "nothing for himself", and then Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by the governor that was to come, when the disgusting thing that caused desolation (identified by Jesus as the Roman armies) desolated them, pouring out desolations upon them. (The second desolation of Jerusalem lasted far, far longer than the first!)

I don't think these scriptures are ambiguous... it's simply that the Jews were not looking for a "suffering servant", or a Messiah that would be "cut off, with nothing for himself" - instead, they were expecting a Messiah-king in the manner of David, who would lead them out of Roman rule.

In other words, as draka pointed out, they misinterpreted the scriptures.

And yes, I think when we wrench prophecies out and beyond their intended purpose, we misinterpret scriptures today. The Daniel 9 prophecy was for the Jews, as the angel plainly states... ("have been determined upon your [i.e. Daniel's] people and upon your [i.e. Daniel's] holy city" - verse 24]... but for some reason, many people today cannot accept that.

That's not a problem :D

Although I would be interested to hear your explanation of the following, with regard to Mathew 24...

Jesus foretold...

(a) Wars, famines, earthquakes, tribulation, lawlessness and good news preached before the end,
(b) disgusting thing standing in the holy place, those in Judea fleeing to the mountains,
© great tribulation that would not occur again,
(d) false christs and false prophets,
(e) sun, moon and stars darkening,
(f) sign of the son of man,
(g) son of man coming on clouds, gathering chosen ones.

Jesus then says: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." (vs 34)

Given that Jesus clearly stated all these things would occur, would you concede that there is no room for a partial fulfillment? (After all, he did not say, "some of these things".)

If you accept that there could not be a partial fulfillment, then either (a) Jesus must have come and gathered his chosen ones around 70AD, i.e. within "this generation" to whom he spoke, or (b) none of it was fulfilled in the 1st century.

But if (b), then why did the Christians flee Jerusalem? Because they applied his words to them! So it must have been fulfilled in the 1st century, and his words in Mathew 24 prior to the "all these things" must have been completely fulfilled in the 1st century.

If this is not the case, please explain how you get round "all these things", as spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hi draka

Well, in the case of Deuteronomy 28, we'd be using historical evidence to prove the Bible. Historical evidence is external to the BIble. The Jews were scattered among the nations and generally mistreated by them for some 1,800 years after they were expelled from Judea in 70AD, exactly as foretold.

Well, I agree that the subject of Revelation is not all about Israel, but are you sure that Rev 12 is about the signs of the end?

I suppose it depends on when you think Satan was (or will be) cast out of heaven, and who the "woman" is. To me, it makes sense that the "woman" symbolizes the nation of Israel. She has a crown of twelve stars (like Israel), and she has the sun and the moon beneath her feet, which sounds similar to Joseph's dream concerning his brothers, who would become the 12 tribes of Israel. (Genesis 37:9-11)

If the woman really is Israel, then there was only one time in history when Satan would have stood before her, ready to devour her child who would shepherd with an iron rod - in 2BC, when Jesus Christ was born!

According to John's vision, the child is born, and caught away to God, while the woman flees to the wilderness.

This sounds remarkably like the history of Jesus Christ, and the Jewish Christians when they fled Jerusalem in 66AD.

So I'd suggest to you that Rev 12 is pictorially describing the overview of the birth of the Messiah, his ascenscion to heaven, and the fleeing of the remnant of Jewish Christians (the true "Israel" by this point) in 66AD.

At this time, war broke out in heaven. It's no wonder, then, that since shortly afterwards Nero was also burning Christians in his Vatican Gardens, and launching his war to overthrow the Jews.

Since Satan could not completely destroy the "woman", he turned his attention to "the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus." (Rev 12:17)

How did he turn his attention to them? By creating a "wild beast". This is also when the Roman empire started becoming the enemy of Christians, as foretold by the rise of the first wild beast in Rev 13.

So to me, it makes sense that Satan was cast out of heaven around 66AD or so. (I certainly doubt he's still in heaven today!) His "short period of time" was 66-73AD, the seven year period during which the Romans were authorized to have mastery over the Jews. (see the original Hebrew of Daniel 9:27) That was his "window of opportunity" as it were to eliminate the Jews and Christians, but he failed.

Hi Interpretum,
I see you have been reading these places in the Bible back and through. So I'll try to explain how I've come to different views.

First of all I've seen that always does not mean always absolutely always. Similarly I've seen that all does not mean absolutely all always. What I've found in the Bible, is that to every teaching you can find a contradictory statment. Therefore you should not take a single word too litteral. But you have to see to the context and to the subject what a specific word means. That should be done with the words "all these things" too.

I'll give some examples of contradictory statements:

About the soul:
And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; Matthew 10:28 (NWT) and Deutoronomy 19:11 (NWT):
“But in case there should happen to be a man hating his fellowman, and he has lain in wait for him and has risen up against him and struck his soul fatally and he has died, and the man has fled to one of these cities,

About tormenting and burning sons:
10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 and Jeremiah 7:31(NWT):
31 And they have built the high places of To´pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’ (Satan was created by God as a good spiritual son, would God torment him forever?.)

Can God lie and deceive?
upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting, Titus 1:2 and 2 Chronicles 18:19-22 (NWT):
19 And Jehovah proceeded to say, ‘Who will fool A´hab the king of Israel that he may go up and fall at Ra´moth-gil´e·ad?’ And there was talk, this one saying something like this, and that one saying something like that. 20 Finally a spirit came out and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I myself shall fool him.’ At that Jehovah said to him, ‘By what means?’ 21 To this he said, ‘I shall go forth and certainly become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ So he said, ‘You will fool him, and, what is more, you will come off the winner. Go out and do that way.’ 22 And now here Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours; but Jehovah himself has spoken calamity concerning you.”

That was only a few examples of contradictory statements. But the Bible is full of them. Therefore I can not take the words of Jesus "all these things" too absolutely.
If you wonder how God and Jesus can be so inaccurate, just remember what is written in Ecclesiastes 7:16 (NWT)

16 Do not become righteous overmuch,
You see, God and Jesus do not even try to be overly righteous.

If you want to find the truth to be a perfect harmony, you will get disappointed.
So, God and Jesus lets everyone to draw his own conclusions, and who draws the right conclusions from the mess will finaly get everlasting life, but who fails will get everlasting destruction.

Apostle Paul had understood the mess or if you call it the foolishness of what is preached and he explained:
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.1 Cor 1:21 (NWT)

Dear Interpretum, I understand you that these arguments feel stange. But I do not get any better harmony to the Scriptures that contain God's word.

With much brotherly love Jan

HI jan:hibye:

RE, So, God and Jesus lets everyone to draw his own conclusions, and who draws the right conclusions from the mess will finaly get everlasting life, but who fails will get everlasting destruction.

:confused:

:shocked:

:(

:heartbeat:

AR

Hi Jan

I do understand and agree with your point about not taking every statement in the Bible at face value. But at what point do we make BLACK equal WHITE?

I'm sure we both agree that the WTS have been masters at taking simple things in the Bible and constructing complex and intertwining doctrines out of them.

I am suggesting that they have done that even more so with prophecy - and that is harder to unravel.

So many of us are used to looking at all prophecies as having "types", "antitypes", "partial", "dual" and "greater" fulfillments that are conveniently written for our generation.

I'm suggesting that we must become like babes again even when it comes to prophecy. Just because we can't see how a prophecy was fulfilled, doesn't mean it MUST therefore have application today.

For example, let's ask the WHAT IF question. What if Jesus actually did come in the clouds in the 1st century?

Could it be that, just as the Jews did not discern that their Messiah would actually be crushed and broken, could it also be that the "coming in the clouds" is also misinterpreted by many Christians?

Remember, Jesus didn't tell us, but told the Jewish leaders in the Sanhedrin: "From henceforth you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Mathew 26:64)

Notice that the Jewish leaders found this intolerable! The high priest ripped his outer garments and said, "He has blasphemed!"

But you know something? Maybe Jesus actually meant what he said... that those Jewish leaders... that entire wicked generation... actually did see Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven".

Is it really so difficult to accept that Jesus simply meant what he said?

All it means is that we 21st century Christians have to re-evaluate what "coming in the clouds" actually means!

In reference to the fall of ancient Egypt and Ethiopia, Jehovah said: "Howl, you people, 'Alas for the day!' for a day is near. A day of clouds, an appointed time of nations it will prove to be. And a sword will come into Egypt, and severe pains must occur in Ethopia when one falls slain in Egypt and they actually take its wealth and its foundations are actually torn down. Ethiopia and Put and Lud and all the mixed company and Chub and the sons of the land of the covenant - with them they will fall by the very sword." (Ezekiel 30:2-5)

Clearly the Bible uses such apocalyptic language whenever a city or nation is about to fall. When Jerusalem fell in 70AD, it was also a day of clouds, of sun and moon and stars darkening - and I'd suggest that was when Jesus came against them in the clouds, as he said he would to the Sanhedrin in Mathew 26:64.

====================================================
Steam:
This thread began with a question about modern day people who should be here interpreting the prophecies. I suggest Matthew 24:45-47 as scripture that answers this question.
KJV Matt. 24:45 - "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season.? (46) Blessed is that servant whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (47) Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods."
I give one name worthy to be called "that servant"; Pastor C.T. Russell. Read his books and learn about the Divine plan. It will help you immensely. Also a Bob Jones in KY.