Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

No, I don't think everything is in the past. For example, I don't believe Armageddon (or "Har-Magedon") has yet happened, nor the 1,000 year reign, nor the general resurrection, nor Satan's being cast into the lake of fire.

To me, Revelation is a series of visions, showing the 1st century disciples what would happen both shortly after it was written (I think this was likely in the 60's during Nero's reign), and the things that would happen afterwards: "Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this." (Rev 1:19)

The things shortly to come were the fall of Jerusalem, as depicted in the seven seals and trumpets.

The things that would take place after this, was the rise of the first wild beast as an image of Satan (the pagan Roman empire which would go on to persecute Christians savagely), the second wild beast (the Papal power which later exercised the power of the first, under a "Christian" guise), and the development of history until the war of Har-Magedon... which is still future, in my opinion.

If you consider how you likely view the beasts of Daniel 7, do you think they all appear quickly? Or do they not span hundreds of years, in your opinion?

If you say they span hundreds of years, I agree... but I suggest the same thing is true of the beasts in Revelation 13. John is borrowing the symbology of Daniel here.

As to where we are in the stream of time, well... the Roman empire divided, as foretold in Daniel 2, and eventually fragmented into several independent kingdoms ("ten toes"?), a little horn called the Papal kingdom emerged from in their midst and spoke blasphemies and waged war against the saints, until eventually the kingdoms got fed up with her, and removed her kingdom, leaving her only Vatican city.

So I'd say we're somewhere in Revelation 16 - I'd suggest we're near or at the "sixth bowl", although I am not yet quite sure what it means specifically by the water drying up to make way for the kings from the East. Clearly the allusion is to Cyrus diverting the river BANKS in order to conquer Babylon.

Someone pointed out to me recently about the language of water that is often used in our monetary system - BANKS, CURRENT account, currency, BRANCH, cash FLOW, LIQUIDity - even BAILOUT! And a good proportion of Western debt is now to Eastern nations, such as China. They only have to pull the plug and stop buying Western debt, and their financial system is sunk. Quite franky, though, this is a very tenous connection and I'm certainly not going to suggest it's the right one without further evidence. But I guess it's part of being on the watch :D

So in short, there's a lot to "look forward" to... the gathering to Har-Magedon, the fall of Babylon (I think this is Rome), the unveiling from heaven of Jesus Christ, the 1,000 year reign and the resurrection.

OK, let me start at a place where we can both agree :D

You're absolutely right to say that festivals, rituals and patterns had their "typical" and "antitypical". We can confidently say that because the author of Hebrews gives us an example in the tent of meeting. (Hebrews 9)

And indeed, there are probably many other correspondencies that are not explicitly spelled out for us. For example, the life of Joseph is quite similar to Jesus Christ. So I agree these correspondencies exist.

However, I would suggest to you that prophecy just has one meaning... BUT... and this is where I think is where the confusion is... parts of prophecies can be "recycled" again by God.

To give you an example, consider the fall of Babylon. The prophecies about the fall of Babylon in Isaiah and Jeremiah is about ancient Babylon, and no other city.

However, clearly there is another Babylon in Revelation. This is a different city from ancient Babylon - but because Revelation is symbolic, the author draws from some of the symbology of the fall of ancient Babylon.

However, he doesn't just draw from the fall of ancient Babylon, but also from Tyre and Ninevah.

This is what I mean when I say prophecy has only one fulfillment. Babylon and "Babylon the Great" are two different cities, each having one unique fulfillment.

I understand, and this is perhaps why it's hard to grasp an alternative point of view.

But bear in mind that this "minor" and "major" idea is what allowed the WTS to essentially interpret many of the prophecies to them. After all, they were "special" and so God must have been writing about them, really!

So really, large parts of isaiah, Jeremiah, Revelation etc were about the governing body being thrown into prison in 1919.

After all, why not? If a prophecy can have multiple meanings...

Well OK, but the language of Revelation 12 seems pretty final to me.

"Now have come to pass... on this account be glad you heavens... woe for the earth..."

So is God ever going to get an actual final victory over Satan? How do you know when that will happen, and that it won't happen multiple times?

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Steam:
Revelation 16:12- "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates, and the water there of was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."
The Euphrates river is a symbol of the supporters of Babylon or Christendom; the common people. Without them Babylon will die. The sixth volume, "The New Creation" was published in 1904; it tells the people that they can worship God without the clergy and the religious classes. They do not have to have the clergy or church buildings or rituals. Please remember that these Volumes of Truth were put forth to deliver the Lord's true saints from the grasp of Christendom; NOT to deliver the tares. Soon Babylon's people are going to leave her to such an extent that she will die. (Rev. 17:15,16)
Her death will come at the hands of the ten nations of Europe, the Western European Union. This will prepare the way for the kings of the east; the Princes in all the earth, the Ancient Worthies who lived before Jesus. See Hebrews 11. They are to be the visible Kingdom of Christ on earth. With Christendom gone, the people will be looking and listening for the voice of the Lord. It will come thru these kings or princes in Israel.
Read Revelation 16:13,14,15,16.
The three unclean spirits gather the nations unto a place (condition) called in the Hebrew tongue, Armageddon. This condition of making alliances and treaties that unite them in defense of othernations if these other nations are attacked. This was done prior to 1914 and was the sole cause of WW1. The nations were committed and when the Prince was killed, they were brought into the war by these treaties. This condition continues today, alliances of co-defense among nations. Armageddon is a condition NOT a war. War results because of this condition.
Verse 19- the city of Babylon was divided into three parts. The beast, the image of the beast, and the False Prophet. They are Papal Rome, the Churh of England, and the World Council of Churches.
Verse 20 tells that all nations are destroyed.
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I'm curious... how many times is Revelation 20:10 fulfilled in your opinion, and how would you justify your answer?

Actually, Armageddon is a place, not a condition: "And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har-Magedon." (Rev 16;16)

This is confirmed by Revelation 19:17, when the birds are also gathered to feast on their dead bodies: "Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God..."

The kings are specifically gathered together to the war: "... to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty." (Rev 16:14)

So apart from references to Russell's writings, can you demonstrate from scripture that Armageddon is a condition, and not a place as we are told?

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Steam, Peace and concern for the least among us should cause you to reconsider what you have stated, because it is wrong.
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Dear Steam, What does peace and concern for the least among us, have to do with my views?:dontknow: Are you positive I'm wrong?

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Steam: Sure I'm positive you are wrong; the least among us don't need false information.