The discovery of a 45' long snake fossil that was 2500 lbs. in real life and could snack on crocodiles got me to thinking about the eras on earth before humans and the future......:read:
God designed a system where everything dined on something else.
From microorganisms to T-Rex.
How does it shape your concept of God, and paradise.
designs
hi designs :)
I think there's a good possibility that many of these horrific creatures were the result of genetic tampering by the fallen angels. A few of the "apocryphal" books like Jasher, Jubilees and Enoch expand on Genesis where God says that he regretted making even the animals when he brought the flood. It speaks of them "mixing species one with the other" and "all flesh had corrupted their ways". Men can be blamed for their actions, but certainly the animals could not have done anything on their own for Him to feel that way.
One day we'll know for sure won't we....
:heartbeat:
Jesh
The discovery of a 45' long snake fossil that was 2500 lbs. in real life and could snack on crocodiles got me to thinking about the eras on earth before humans and the future......:read:
God designed a system where everything dined on something else.
From microorganisms to T-Rex.
How does it shape your concept of God, and paradise.
designs
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Steam: Just saw a 20 foot snake on TV last night, it had an alligator in it. These long snakes are moving up as the weather warms up and will be in states up to Ohio and across the nation.
See Genesis 2:19 and 6:6.7.8, 13 God told Noah that the animals would be meat for him. Gen. 9:3 It seems that the animals didn't begin to eat one another until after the Flood, as did Noah also begin to eat meat.
As to the question; How does it shape your concept of God and Paradise?
I don''t know, my concept of God and paradise is built on many other verses and explanations. God was intending to destroy the animals with the first world but because of Noah, he allowed this world to begin and the animals were saved from destruction at that time. The ones on the ark, not all animals were saved.
God has promised a paradise here on earth for obedient people and I firmly believe it is going to be so. The animals are going to become tame and lovable. Lions will eat straw. I pray for that Kingdom to come and we know it shall, at the end of the Milllennium and the Little Season in 2955AD. NO sinners will be left on planet earth.
Frankly, the findings of dinosaurs and the time periods involved goes way beyond our understandings of the earth's history as laid out in the Photodrama of Creation. So, why not admit that we just don't know what happened or what was true.
It reminds me of the Catholic Church's position of subjecting the great astronomer Copernicus to an Inquisition because he said the earth isn't the center of the universe! Whenever religious people start creating doctrines based on religious assumptions, they get in trouble and make belief in God look ridiculous. And here is another good example.
Have you ever wondered how Jehovah (or Jesus) views a matter when so-called Christians get into a debate about creation, when He knows that He didn't really do it that way?
How silly we must look to them... especially when we get into heated debates with each other or with scientists about things that we simply have too little information about to reach a conclusion! Genesis 1 is a very short Chapter with very little description about how it all came to be; and trying to add hundreds of Chapters of commentary and conclusions is simply narrow-minded ridiculousness.
What do we really know from WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS (not our personal opinions)?
Genesis 1: "20 And God spoke, saying, ‘Let the water give birth to living, slithering animals, as well as to winged creatures to fly above the earth in the space of the skies.’ And that’s what happened. 21 So God created the great sea creatures and the lives of all the slithering animals that come from the water, according to their types, and all feathered flying creatures, according to their types, and God saw that it was good. 22 Then God blest them, saying, ‘Reproduce and multiply in the water until you fill the seas. And let the winged creatures multiply on the earth.’ 23 So came the evening and morning of day five."
"29 Then God said, ‘Look, I’ve given you all the seed-bearing plants upon the entire earth for [you to] plant, as well as all the seed-bearing trees for [you to] plant as your food. 30 And [I’ve given] greenish-yellow plants as food to all the earth’s wild animals, all the winged creatures of the sky, and all the slithering animals that crawl on the ground and have the breath of life.’ And that’s what happened. 31 Then God viewed everything He made, and {Look!} it was very good. So came the evening and morning of day six."
Genesis 2: "15 Then Jehovah God took the man that He had formed and put him in the Paradise of Delights, so He could cultivate and care for it. 16 And Jehovah God gave these instructions to Adam: ‘You are free to eat from all the trees of Paradise, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad. Because, on whatever day you eat from it, your life will end and you will die.’"
Genesis 4:2 "Well, Able [grew up to be] a herder of sheep, while Cain worked the ground."
Genesis 9: "3 ‘All living and slithering animals can serve as meat for you. I have given them all to you as though they were green vegetation. 4 But you must not eat flesh with its blood of life. 5 Otherwise, I will require your blood at the hand of all the wild animals. I will also require a man’s life at the hand of his brothers. 6 For, whoever spills the blood of men will also have their blood spilled, because I made man in the image of God. 7 So, reproduce and multiply… fill the earth and rule over it!’"
That's all we have... all else is speculation and the foolish arguments of silly and argumentive mankind. When will we learn?
But then, it's surprising what strong conclusions people can reach from just a few simple words.
Then God viewed everything He made, and {Look!} it was very good.
Hi Designs,
What possible explanation could throw light on your question from the contrast between Eden and the vast majority of Earth's surface outside of Eden?
WCL
Derek
The discovery of a 45' long snake fossil that was 2500 lbs. in real life and could snack on crocodiles got me to thinking about the eras on earth before humans and the future......:read:
God designed a system where everything dined on something else.
From microorganisms to T-Rex.
How does it shape your concept of God, and paradise.
designs
Hi Derek,
It was more just musing about all the amazing stuff and things that have occured on this earth and are still occuring.
There were and still are some giant creatures that munched on other animals for their existence, genuine wrecking machines. There's no moralizing on killing and eating the way humans moralize on things. A snake like that would swallow a missionary the same as a cow :eat:. Its a very curious structure from God.
designs
Hi Designs,
What possible explanation could throw light on your question from the contrast between Eden and the vast majority of Earth's surface outside of Eden?
WCL
Derek
The discovery of a 45' long snake fossil that was 2500 lbs. in real life and could snack on crocodiles got me to thinking about the eras on earth before humans and the future......:read:
God designed a system where everything dined on something else.
From microorganisms to T-Rex.
How does it shape your concept of God, and paradise.
designs
Hi Designs,
I agree with you, it appears to be hard to understand when looking at it from a human standpoint. But it works. The Earth is self supporting and, as you know, without humans messing it up it generally works in an harmonious way.
We certainly cannot judge animals by our moral standards.
Life continued to have continuity and flowered in all its amazing diversity over vast periods of time. The Earth, I suppose, was the Creator's palette and it was written and rewritten like a beautiful biological palimpsest.
When God put man in Eden, I believe man, the spiritual animal, whom God loves and intended better things for, was liberated, or would eventually be liberated from change and decay.
I doubt very much that the disobedient angels or their progeny biologically engineered predators. They are better engineered than His herbivores!!! :) ;) Such views do not honour the Creator God who caused them to exist and He should get the credit.
WCL
Derek
Yes, and may I point out just one more observation:
There is nothing in the Bible about allowing animals to eat each other... just about allowing them to eat men if men eat their blood. So, what scripture can we point to in order to show just when allowing animals to eat animals began?
Take for example, the creatures in the seas; there is an amazing shortage of green plants in the seas today, so almost all sea creatures prey on each other. And if that is wrong, then how small must life go in order to become food... to the microbe level?
I am not being (nor do I feel) dogmatic on this subject. However, I am coming to believe that man's commission to "rule over" the animals meant to bring about an order that did not previously exist. And using the simple scripture "and God saw that it was good" to prove otherwise, provides the very weakest of evidence that men or animals were not to consume other animals in the beginning, for we don't really know how God views things. In fact, the huge slashing teeth on saber-toothed cats and many dinosaurs would have made it impossible for them to eat vegetables.
Why, despite the fact that the earth outside the garden was filled with briars and brambles where men had to plant by the sweat of their brow, God saw that "it was good."
And what of the fact that the faithful man Abel was "a herder of sheep?" Why did he herd sheep... to sell the wool... to just drink their milk? And if he just drank the milk, what did the lambs drink?
This is not dogmatism, it's just the logical questions that are raised in my mind.
Also; notice that the animals which Noah was to bring into the chest (ark) were classified as "the clean and the unclean." And since such designations referred to what was considered as fit or not fit to EAT, how did Noah know which was which?
Regardless of what the Society teaches about the meaning of Isaiah 11:4-10 having already been fulfilled (to keep their teaching that "God's Kingdom has begun" alive), I know that the prophecy there is both future and literal.
So, "He’ll strike the earth with the words from his mouth, and destroy the godless with the breath from his lips. Justice will be tied ‘round his waist, and his sides will be girdled with truth.
"Then the wolf and the lamb together will feed; the leopard will nap with the kid; bulls, calves, and lions together will graze, and they’ll be led by a small child. The ox and the bear will graze by each other; together their young ones [will play], and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
"On the burrows of asps a young child will play, and he’ll put his hands in the bed of young asps. For, none will do any harm, and none will destroy on My holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah, as the seas are covered by water."
This is a prophecy of FUTURE conditions, and there is no indication that it was a retroactive prophecy.
The discovery of a 45' long snake fossil that was 2500 lbs. in real life and could snack on crocodiles got me to thinking about the eras on earth before humans and the future......:read:
God designed a system where everything dined on something else.
From microorganisms to T-Rex.
How does it shape your concept of God, and paradise.
designs
I know this is an older post, but it caught my eye, and after reading your opening comment it brought to mind a conversation that my roommate and myself had just this week. We've started to read through the Bible together as she never has before, and she made a comment about the passage about the great sea monsters. :read:
((God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.))
Anyhow, after we read that she asked why in the world would God make these sea monsters first, and then the smaller fish :fishy: that would clearly become their food. :eat: She saw it as being slightly cruel to create things simply to die at the hands of another. :reaper:
For me, I saw it in a different way. Mainly in how clever God is. That he would create these great creatures to feast, but then when they died their bodies would feed the smaller creatures :fishsmilie:. Their excrement would feed the micro organisms that started at the bottom to feed the smaller creatures, etc...etc... Kind of in the way that we eat animals and plants, but when we die our bodies nourish the earth and feed the animals. :wolf: It's, as the Lion King so clearly stated, The Circle of Life. And without any part of it we would all die. Without our breath, and the breath of most animals plant life would wither. But without the plant life we would. :desert: God knows what he is doing. It made me realize what a clever architect he is. :greatjob:
As for paradise...that's a harder one to put into perspective. :thinking: I suppose that it would depend on what paradise is. For me it always struck me as Eden...but I know some would never agree with that, that's just my personal view. And in the garden Adam and Eve could eat of any fruit... I don't remember anything about meat until after their expulsion. And I don't know what commandments he gave to the animals. But he still set life in place in an order that to me screamed Food Chain to sustain every living creature. Maybe Paradise is taking us all outside of that chain. Lord knows most carnivorous aren't strictly that. You can train most meat eaters to become vegetarians. If he takes us out of the chain we no longer have to struggle. :shrug: Who knows, but the process doesn't make think any less of God, that's for sure.
Hi Jim,
I've rather belatedly just read your comments about the sea food chain.
Actually, there is considerable photosynthesizing biomass in the oceans, they produce, if I recall correctly, two thirds of the oxygen in the atmosphere and are responsible for locking up much of the excess CO2 in the atmosphere in ocean sediment.
Hi Draka,
I don't think the account necessarily means the large sea creatures were created first. Without the phytoplankton there would be no life in the oceans and insufficient oxygen for land animals.
Life on our planet is a great wonder.
Derek
quote
The Marine Food Chain
Phytoplankton is the first level of our food chain, followed by the zooplankton, which feeds on the phytoplankton. The zooplankton are then eaten by krill, fish and other crustaceans, which all go on to be eaten by big fish, penguins, seals, walruses and whales. The food chain continues when these are eaten by mammals like polar bears.(Vegas)
If you think about the food chain logically it is easy to understand how, without plankton, all of the oceans animals would die. Without phytoplankton, zooplankton would not have food and die. Without zooplankton, krill, smaller fish and other crustaceans would have nothing to eat and they would die, etc, etc. Until finally you get all the way out to large mammals like whales, dolphins, and manatees. All animals in the ocean depend on plankton for survival.
Hi Jim,
I've rather belatedly just read your comments about the sea food chain.
Actually, there is considerable photosynthesizing biomass in the oceans, they produce, if I recall correctly, two thirds of the oxygen in the atmosphere and are responsible for locking up much of the excess CO2 in the atmosphere in ocean sediment.
Yes, I'm EXTREMELY familiar with that fact, since I've written several magazine articles about the subject (when talking about atmospheric damage due to CFCs and "global warming"). My reference, of course, was to the sparsity of "sea weed" in the oceans. But, as you pointed out, the microscopic vegetation is the bottom of a food chain for animals that thereafter consume each other.
While I still believe that animals (under our guardianship) will stop consuming each other at some level, there is a level where that isn't possible. And even Jesus aided in the Apostle's fishing efforts. So, all we can do is speculate on what the future holds, and try to keep an open mind.
Fine Jim, your are obviously a man of many parts! :)
Hi Jim,
I've rather belatedly just read your comments about the sea food chain.
Actually, there is considerable photosynthesizing biomass in the oceans, they produce, if I recall correctly, two thirds of the oxygen in the atmosphere and are responsible for locking up much of the excess CO2 in the atmosphere in ocean sediment.
Yes, I'm EXTREMELY familiar with that fact, since I've written several magazine articles about the subject (when talking about atmospheric damage due to CFCs and "global warming"). My reference, of course, was to the sparsity of "sea weed" in the oceans. But, as you pointed out, the microscopic vegetation is the bottom of a food chain for animals that thereafter consume each other.
While I still believe that animals (under our guardianship) will stop consuming each other at some level, there is a level where that isn't possible. And even Jesus aided in the Apostle's fishing efforts. So, all we can do is speculate on what the future holds, and try to keep an open mind.