Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hello Everyone:hug:

I have a major problem with speculation on Revelation and how much of it becomes SPIRITISM.

I don't exactly know how to express myself at this moment. I'll take some time to develop a more accurate way of pinpointing my absolute HATRED for people using utterances from the ground in order to TELL people how REVELATION will be played out.

Does anyone else KNOW what I am talking about? Not the innocent bible reader who reads Revelation and forms ideas and thoughts and wants to talk about it. I'm talking about the DEEP and DIRTY.

Does anyone else here understand how easy it is for satan to use this book against us? Because it has, at the very least (if not most), a part of the prophecy happening in the future.

As a fleshly person, when we look to "future predictions" we become viable vessels for the demons. Isn't there well known murders who feel that Revelation "spoke" to them?

This is probably one of the reasons why I like Interpretums interpretation. It takes away satans POWER of speculation for MANY of the verses and chapters. By having much of it fulfilled during the fall of Jerusalum, we are left with a smaller portion to be looking at the "signs of the times". Not that I KNOW he's right. To be honest I don't KNOW much of anything. I just like his historical view.

Does anybody else feel that there is great danger in "predicting" Revelation. Even the WTBTS has made itself a false prophet by their interpretation.

Does anyone else get REALLY upset because people are out there spreading their "magic' of interpretation and propogating "demonic utterances"?

With Christian Disturbance, Debbie

Hi Debbie

Thanks for the mention :D

I do tend to agree that Satan uses the book of Revelation for his own ends.

Sometimes I get the impression that certain Christians justify their actions (such as support of wars) because of Revelation - i.e. they believe a third of mankind are going to be destroyed as per their interpretation of Revelation 9, therefore they almost WANT it to happen, just to "confirm" the Bible.

I know this was a JW mentality in reference to Armageddon... they were almost LOOKING FORWARD TO 99.9% of the world allegedly being slaughtered by God.

Personally, I find that mentality quite disturbing. And I bet Satan loves how God is portrayed by them as ready and keen to eliminate most of mankind.

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Steam:
Matthew 24:22 - "And except those days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

I'm not trying to justify the JW attitude but this scripture applies to what you are talking about. The destruction will be so great that the Lord has to stop it or ALL would be killed. This will happen in the next 125 years, I think! And this is not in the Revelation.

Armageddon is a much abused word, no where in the Bible is it called a war. It is a condition, a attitude among the nations which causes them to go to war by codefensive measures. Treaties and Alliances.

Is anyone else having computer problems on this site, or is it just my computer?

I just spent time pouring my heart into a post that got erased mid writing. I also seem to be running in loops.

Let me know if its a site problem or I need hubby to put on his "geek squad" hat after work today.

Thanks in advance...I'm going to try again, Deb

My point and experience with Revelation is much broader than JW's interpretation. In fact, reaching this point reminds me of being a little girl at an assembly and wondering why we "knew" the future and we are not supposed to "know" the future. We would sing songs and listen to talks. It just seemed premature from my little girl stand point. I am crying right now, its immensely overwhelming how God reaches our hearts even when we are little. I feel like just during that one thought and sentence that I was healed in another little part of me.

What I'm expressing is how dangerous Revelation truly can be. On another discussion forum, I learned about the NWO being the "great tribulation" and all kinds of "secrets" to the answers to the book. I could feel a "high" and a "spirit" that kept me totally engrossed wanting to "know" more answers. Thanks to Jehovah and Jesus, I was shown that it wasn't right to partake in this activity. I was really engrossed, my husband would ask me what are you reading, Revelations? What a surprise. I was truly overcome.

My next experience had to do with ABM's interpretation with Revelation and JW prophecy. This time I felt ill and I take it as a exteme warning. I mean you no harm ABM, I promise. Obviously, you are overcome with "a" zeal. I pray you realize that "predicting" has its dangers. I'm not trying to judge you either. We all carry our own torture stakes. So I pray you well, no matter what.

So, I left the bible alone for a bit in regards to Revelation in particular. I would read a little for references with posts, but my heart felt so much pain. Someone mentioned on a thread how the bible is not a "charm" and I had a return visit with the JW this past week (same one mentioned on another thread). We talked a bit and he said even murderers read the bible and think that "God" is telling them to do something. I never took it seriously about satan working on people through the bible. (I did read it again after Interpretums thread and left it alone again.)

Now I understand how dangerous Revelation truly is. Because it is a book that has future applications, satan can just hang around when we are reading it and give us a "high". We can have a "spirit" or "spirits" come in and through us to tantalize some kind of "epiphany" of understanding. Perhaps that how someone like Russell who started with good intentions got side tracked with a few wrong interpretations.

The holy spirit, love and peace are feelings that we want and crave. We are designed to long to be close to Jehovah and Jesus.

That's why its easy for "bad spirits" to use our good intentions in our imperfect, vulnerableness. They seek opportunities. Reading Revelation opens opportunity because we can be open for a "spirit of prediction". Yet, their "high" or "feeling" is NOT the same as holy spirit. But the flesh likes the "high" that the bad spirits can give us, so we can follow a course until we are overcome.

I agree that prophecy is to be understood during and after it fulfillment, New Truth. And a safe and healthy way to look at it IMHO.

Revelation has been used and abused in so many ways. Religions have beat plenty of people with the graphic, scary words in the book.

My heart is sad with this realization of how easy satan can abuse people from something that should be consider "safe". Its not "safe". Satan looks to devour us, even using what I thought was OK even "holy".

I'm truly grateful to Jehovah and Jesus for giving me a way out and helping me to mature. Ohh, how my heart aches to help prevent someone else from getting caught in one of the traps that satan can catch us in from persuing prophecy.

What do you think people should use as a meter? Anyone with any ideas?

I can only come to the conclusion that if we think we "know" the answer to Revelations, as to a future application, then we may be in trouble.

The bible clearly states that Jesus knows his sheep and his sheep know him. John 10: 16,17. Jesus says that we will listen to his voice. I use that as my comfort now.

I hope that I don't intimidate anyone with my candidness. I speak from my heart.

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

I would hope so. ;) According to the Watchtower, it isn't much more than their rather mundane 20th century organizational history. I don't know of any other significant religious organization on earth that dares to be so pompous and self-righteous.

So tell me Deb, which is more diabolical: Speculating on what the Revelation might mean for the future, or applying all of it to oneself, thereby negating the whole thing and blinding everyone to it's possible implications?

:heartbeat:
Jesh

Dear Jesh,

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question?

With Christian Love, Deb

I meant the Watchtower applying the whole book to themselves, their district assemblies in the 20's, their insignificant tracts, the whole Revelation Climax book. It's a joke. To me it's worse than any harm that can come from speculating on what it might mean for the future, because they apply it to their own recent past, based of course, on 1914. And then the book is no good to anybody. On this I happen to agree with Watchman. I was just wondering which of these two things you thought was worse.

Love to you Sis...
:heartbeat:
Jesh

Hey Jeshurun!! :clap:


Nice picture, bro! Good to see other people putting their faces on the board! :thumbsup:


Cheers! :thumbsup:

Hey Debbie!! :clap:


Hows it going mate? :hug:


Personally, when it comes to interpreting Revelation -- I dont think there is any ONE way to interpret it and I also believe that ALL interpretations have some form of merit.

I also believe that Revelation has a layered interpretive approach, in that it is talking about things on the earthly realm, in both the physical that we can "see", and the underlying energy types that govern the physical that we can "see" -- why? Well, thats the Quantum nature of reality. None of us have God's perspective, but we do all have fractals of God's perspective - which gives rise to the 1000's upon 1000's of interpretations out there, today.


I think that both Futurists and Preterists have equally vaild points, and their disagreements dont make them wrong, but they do show that both sides are simply different pespectives of the same "thing".

Also, if people use what might be called, "conspiracy theories" to compliment their understanding -- I dont think this qualifies as being Spiritism -- as one day, it will be History -- in fact, from Jehovah's standpoint, everything has already been accomplished e.g seen the end from the very beginning -- so looking into "conspiracy theories", while im not much of an indulger myself, I dont think it qualifies as Spiritism.

Now, if someone actually communicates with a Spirit to get the information, well, that might change things!


Cheers mate! :friends:

You were my inspiration! :drinking:

.....and Brendan too....:hibye:

Now I wanna see everybody else's mug! C',mon Iso, Interpretum...I dare ya...:D

Also, I'm officially dropping young earth creationism :jawdrop:...we live and learn...the Nag Hammadi Library and some other ancient writings have rendered it impossible, in my opinion....my apologies to everyone like you Derek for being stiff-necked. :quiet: I surrender to solid evidence, as I see it. There are just too many things in the Bible that can't be taken literally....but I do love the Gnostic interpretation. :read: There's a pretty good one for the Book of Revelation too...

......I'm not giving up geocentrism though....:P

:heartbeat:
Jesh

Dear Jeshurun and Digital Punk,

There is a difference between "speculating" and "discussing" Revelation and what I am trying to express.

DP, your final sentence sums it up. Conspiracy theories are riddled with individuals receiving information from spirit mediums. Thats part of what I am basing my argument on.

Jushurun himself uses information and propogates information from a known spirit medium.

Anyone can get "caught" when they are using information that is being gathered this way.

Maybe Jeshurun, you can explain HOW people KNOW so much about SATANS activities without it coming from demonic utterances. HOW can a whole NWO order "play by play" be predicted? Revelation certainly doesn't say what is being applied to the NWO, its speculation from information from the "dark forces".

I promise that I am NOT talking about simple conversations about Revelation. I am talking about spiritism that is used to advance satans agenda or to cause people to act or do things under this "possession".

The answer to what is worse: the WTBTS false predictions or propogating demonic inspired NWO? They are both WRONG. There is no worse. The bad thing is when you know better and YOU STILL DO IT.

AND...

Taking it away from WTBTS and NWO, the fact of the matter is that satan can use Revelation against us because it is a predictive prophecy. The bible supports that demonic activity for predictive means ARE one of the powers that the demons have. THATS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.

I didn't realize how dangerous this was until I started with forum discussions. This, honestly, has truly enlightened me. It explains alot of how the bible has been used by religions under the "spirit" of satan.

WTBTS, NWO, Catholics....what's the difference Jeshurun? They are all POISON in one way or another. You should not be touching the disgusting thing and propogating it.

I didn't start this thread to pick an argument with you. I started it because I was hoping that some other people would be able to support my argument that there is dangering in "peering" too deeply in Revelation. If someone is getting a certain "feeling" or "high" thinking they have the predictive answer is what I am trying to warn against. The "bad spirits" become so strong that well intentioned Christians start to want to KNOW EVERYTHING that satan is doing. How could you know without SPIRITISM (not that you could trust it anyway)?

Let me also add, "All scriptures are beneficial"...So, I'm not against Revelation. I'm just saying that it can provide an "open door". So there are definite benefits in the studying and reading Revelation. The book even says so.

If you can't tell the difference of what I'm trying to express, then I don't know what to say. I'm trying to candidly express a trap and that's about it.

With Christian Love, Debbie

PS. I really need to get into the html coding so I can use colors instead of bold. I don't want it to be a shout, I just want it to stress that part. I'm sorry if the BOLD is a little rough for the gentle at heart.

i'ze gots me a policy when it comes to revelations. :dontknow:

wait ... and ... see. :thumbsup:

Actually, I want to modify my opinion about which is worse the WTBTS or NWO.

I think because JW's (the victims of the WTBTS) spead the gospels and TRY to worship in spirit and truth, that thats better than the NWO.

The NWO propogates FEAR. It focuses the attention on satan. If all the attention is on satan and his friends, then who is getting the worship?