Hi Deborah,
I remember when most JWs were poor, because I've probably been there much longer than you (I was baptized in 1950, and our family of five lived in a 1-bedroom apartment near Chicago). But poorness for most is no longer the case.
Yet, even back when we were extremely poor, no one would have thought of taking literature without paying for it... but not true today. For I found it common for Witnesses who once would not have ordered bound volumes or deluxe Bibles, because they could not afford them, to order freely after they were no longer required to pay for them.
And as for the food: you just had to watch what was happening to see that it couldn't last much longer. Why, it was the contributions from the refreshment stands and cafeterias that paid most of the bills for the conventions and assemblies, because there were few contributions in the contribution boxes. So, the gatherings were no longer meeting the costs, because many people (and their unsupervised kids especially) would order whatever their hearts desired with no thought of the costs or contributing!
Also, I can testify to that fact that, as of eight years ago, literature contributions in most congregations dropped to about 1/3 of what they had been 10 years earlier, although the costs continued to soar. And this situation becomes even worse in congregations that have foolishly burdened themselves with unnecessary new-constructions costs (it's someone else's money).
And don't believe the hog wash that the Society puts out about their "simplifications," because that is just a ruse to cover their huge losses of income... they lie a lot.
As for individuals pocketing Society monies: just look at all the testimonies of former GB members and Bethelites. If they had anything to tell, they would have told it. O yes; there are those in the GB who live very comfortably... because many wish to curry their favor with gifts. However, the JW position of refusing to accept profits from their "ministry" is probably their last redeeming value in the eyes of God. So let's not take that away from them... until they take it away from themselves... which has to happen soon if they are to survive.
As an elder I knew the costs and contributed as much as our family could afford, which was often 1/4 of our congregation's (of more than 100) total contributions to the Society to cover literature, and about that percentage of our local KH costs. And we were by no means the wealthiest in our various congregations. So yes... they are stingy!
Its actually nice to hear your perception. I was under the influence that the WTBTS had a corporate level that was getting rich somewhere.
We had to buy food tickets, so our assemblies did not provide free food.
When I studied and stayed in a congregation for 3 years @1995, my study teacher was around 65 and her husband was the WT overseer @70. She taught to donate what you considered a book to cost. Because I was single for @1 1/2 years before I married my childrens father, she said not to worry about it too much and do what I could. Three years studying and doing the weekly watchtower with the WT overseer and his wife for our weekly bible study (we already went through two books) and some NEW YOUNG ELDER said I shouldn't be baptized, The elder said (and his father was an elder, too) that I didn't have enough faith in Jehovah when I chose to marry. I should have stayed single because my ex studied but wasn't ALL that into it.
I get really mad about some elders ignorance of letting a woman and three children live below the poverty level because they feel thats more righteous then marrying the father. We were separated and he never really wanted to get married. I lived alone and spent my time taking care of my kids and working on Christian values. After awhile, my ex said that with all the adversity in my life-I always looked happy. We decided to get married on the spur of the moment (had to hurry so we wouldn't have sex!) I really should not have. I think Jehovah and Jesus really TRIED to warn me. My three year old son got into a box that was packed to move to my place. This was the day before the wedding. My son grabbed a bunch of papers out of the box and threw them around. I picked them up. They were my ex's AA papers writing out all the wrongs he has done. One of them included how he had cheated on me hundreds of times! I wanted to call everything off. Instead, I kept it to myself and didn't want to embarass myself in front of all the people who spent money for the wedding. My stupidity cost me much more later!
The ignorance about women suffering with children goes way beyond my personal experience. I know there are other women who end up choosing sin to make end meet (living and having sex with someone). Some men run away from their responsibilites and the women are left in such a horrible state. I wish I could help more. I thought of putting an ad in a paper or handing some pamphlets to the police or something. I would like our family to help a family or two with housework, cooking, bedtimes. The high stress part of the day where some women may want to drink or abuse drugs because they don't know how to cope. I have one friend that we help, I would like to help a another. It just seems so natural. I don't need "friends" to be in a clique. I'm just not interested in getting involved in the PTA, etc... I just want to help one broken family with my broken family. Then we ALL benefit.
Thank you, Jim, for your clarifications.
With Christian Love, Debbie
I used to turn my stomach into knots worrying and trying to figure out what will happen but it is not really for us to understand fully because nobody not even the prophets knew exactly when or how it would all play out.
Think about this too. Nineveh was prophetically doomed! Jonah preached the truth when he said they were doomed, he did not lie. Yet Nineveh was spared due to their quick repentance and FAITH yes I said faith in the prophet word of God! Because if they did not have faith they would not have been spared! ONLY those with faith will survive and it could be a last minute faith. (faith the size of a mustard grain moves mountains) Manasseh comes to mind too when it comes to last minute saving. He must of really repented from the heart because he did some truly evil stuff!
Think about it when people saw Jesus miracles they put faith in him. So it will be when he comes again. Those who might have doubted or did not believe in him may come to believe because of miracles performed by him or his followers. The great crowd will be great and those not my people will be my people.
What is the message preached before ANY Godly judgment? Repent and turn around! Those who do so and believe will be saved as those in the past were from calamities predicted. God only knows the heart of the truly repentant sinner and no man can judge his eternal life.
Amen praise God and the lord Jesus Christ!
Well, you've been through a lot my sister, and it sounds like things haven't really let up.
Having once been a young elder (28), and having lived to be an old one (60 at the time), I now realize how silly it is for biased and inexperienced men to give family advice, for so much of it is wrong. I can from experience tell you horror story after horror story.
Yes, the Bible is our guide, but I'm starting to realize how few of the JW laws have firm scriptural backing. You take a little here, then extrapolate the implication and attach it over there. And yes, Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 6:1,2, "Would any of you who think you’ve been [wronged] by another dare to take it to court [to be tried by] unrighteous men rather than by the Holy Ones? Don’t you know that the Holy Ones will judge the world? And if you’re going to judge the world, aren’t you qualified to judge small matters?"
However, unless an "elder" is truly filled with God's Breath (a rare thing), what business do they have in messing with people's lives using "cookie cutter" advice?
As I read the scriptures, there seems to be strong indication that all wrong acts were not dealt with by disfellowshipping, and even when they were, the reproof was light and short, with no later applied "restrictions."
I've also seen cases where elders forbid baptism because someone couldn't answer all the questions, or they didn't attend enough meetings, or they didn't go out in service as much... quite a deviation from the scenarios outlined in the Bible.
The lawsuits that resulted from the elders' and the Society's ways of handling child molestation should have given them fair warning that they were handling things wrong, but it seem as though all they've learned is how to better avoid lawsuits.
I used to turn my stomach into knots worrying and trying to figure out what will happen but it is not really for us to understand fully because nobody not even the prophets knew exactly when or how it would all play out.
Think about this too. Nineveh was prophetically doomed! Jonah preached the truth when he said they were doomed, he did not lie. Yet Nineveh was spared due to their quick repentance and FAITH yes I said faith in the prophet word of God! Because if they did not have faith they would not have been spared! ONLY those with faith will survive and it could be a last minute faith. (faith the size of a mustard grain moves mountains) Manasseh comes to mind too when it comes to last minute saving. He must of really repented from the heart because he did some truly evil stuff!
Think about it when people saw Jesus miracles they put faith in him. So it will be when he comes again. Those who might have doubted or did not believe in him may come to believe because of miracles performed by him or his followers. The great crowd will be great and those not my people will be my people.
What is the message preached before ANY Godly judgment? Repent and turn around! Those who do so and believe will be saved as those in the past were from calamities predicted. God only knows the heart of the truly repentant sinner and no man can judge his eternal life.
Amen praise God and the lord Jesus Christ!
Dear Chuck,
Nice to see you again! Did you carve TRUTH into that rock or paint it? If you carved, how long did it take? That seems like it would be hard unless you had some great tools.
I worried and fretted too many years, myself. The organization always having the looming doom had a serious effect on me. No wonder anxiety runs in the family, we are all in fear. Can I do this, can I do that, will I die if I miss a meeting, tell someone their hair looks nice even if its awful (maybe the person needed comfort more than my opinion). Too many fears, ALL THE TIME.
This forum has been very valuable with the trickle of love the flows from here. A moment of freedom to express, share and learn. Some topics are hard, though. Like, I don't KNOW who Michael the Arch Angel is except that he's Michael the Arch Angel and mentioned in the bible. I was told he is Jesus. Now, I know nothing. You know something? I can rest at, I know nothing.
I also believe that a chance for repentance before judgement makes perfect sence. Even Jesus spent 3 1/2 years preaching and healing people. He had powers that we don't have, they had sight and we have faith. I look forward to experiencing that CHANCE. JW's teach that this is our chance now, we either want to learn about God now or die. So awful. But, I don't know anything anymore. The older I get the dumber I am.
I pray for you and yours to be well.
With Chrisitan Love, Debbie
And Catholics complain that they are the ones with a guilt complex... HAH! Try spending a few years as a Witness. They don't really have an inkling, do they?:innocent:
The witnesses mistakenly equate wisdom with knowledge.
This is why they think they need to have an answer for everything with a scripture, and have an explanation for every prophecy in the Bible.
The more I have learned the more I have realised I know very little.
We learn little by little, which is why we need eternal life, because we need the time to get to know our Father.
John 17:3. (A Greeky chat on that anyone?).
I was a pre 1975 witness and stored all sorts of weird things in case of the end, such as vitamins and makeup (obviously an airheaded femail). I didn't get any further education, which would have been of greater benefit.
I now believe Revelation will be a seven year period, with enough signs for everyone to have the opportunity to make the right choice.
The idea that witnesses have elders poking their noses in other peoples business is rediculous. I remember a body of elders, none of whom owned their own home, bidding for a piece of land for a kingdom hall. They got the land, but it was later discovered they had paid 30% too much.
Boy Vicky, don't get me started on elder stupidity... I could write books. And as for a Greeky chat on John 17:3, I think that you already know where I am on that... but I'm always willing to chat with someone like you who knows how much she knows and how much we all don't (an open mind).
I guess the holy spirit didn't 'channel' them properly for the property.
And yet, they are endorsed with spirit for Jesus fleshly property?
I wish I knew that there wasn't 'secret holy spirit' going on in the back room when I was younger. There always seemed to be a sense of mysticism associated with the elders powers.
I would like that dillusion of 'special power' to be exposed. Its just wrong.
With Love, Debbie
I was sitting in at a judicial meeting (with a sister/friend) where a commitee of three elders gave an active and acknowledged alcoholic 'permission' to drink enough at night to 'relax.' :shocked: and you know if the elders tell you that you can drink then your wife's objections become null and void and even worse disrespected.....stupid is a good word.... :love: