Howdy e-m
Re: "My cursory research showed that it is most likely "Yahweh",..."
It seems the "w" sound is not part of Hebrew. Therefore, YHVH may be more accurate than YHWH. (Please correct me if wrong)
.02,
gogh
Hi e-magine,
Yes I like using Yahweh or Yehowah in my prayers and more and more in coversation along with Father. I still use Jesus more than Yeshua, don't know why, just for practical purposes I guess.
You don't read of any prayers in the NT using the Name, unless the singing in Revelation 19 could be considered prayerlike.
designs
e-magine.
I would say that is an open historical question. These were Jews, and while the holy name of God was under a cloud of superstition in that era, Jews knew the name (YHWH). It was still being written by Jews in the Christian Era.
The Apostle John's use of JAH in Revelation 19 shows how the holy angles of heaven feel about the Name.
I'm all for keeping God's name on Christian lips. It should be part of our worship.
I would argue also that Jesus invoked the Name of his Father when he rebuked Satan by quoting the Shema of Deut. in the accounts of Matthew and Mark. After all it the Jesus as the Word who spoke those words originally to the Chosen People..
In Christ
designs
Hi Jan, We were all taught to use and promote God's personal name,
espically in prayer. Yet, Jesus and the first cent. Christians never used a personal name in prayer.
I'd rather be in the Way, then in the truth!
Hi Designs, Not wanting to be argumentative about this, but I am personally miffed at being taught that the proper name of God is Jehovah, which it is not. Yes, it is commonly accepted in English, espically since the 19 Cent., before Jehovahs Witnesses, but that pronounciation is a guesstimate from a Cathloic cleric in the 15 cent, was it not?
I am not against using a proper name in my worship, but feel that it should be as spoken as close to the way Moses heard it himself.
My cursory research showed that it is most likely "Yahweh", which should be pronounced as 4 syllables, not 2. More like, Ya He Whe He, the actual sounds of the origional 4 Hebrew letters., I believe with short vowel sounds.
But in prayer, I prefer to follow Jesus example, and use "father".
Really, is there any example of using the proper name YHWH in prayer in the New Testament?
Yes, it was more probably a V, but the Hebrew language and the pronunciations of letters changed over the years, so I'm less worried about exact pronunciations. And yes, there probably were four syllables, because there was generally a fixed vowel sound spoken with each consonant (which explains why there were no vowels), and there was no silent H.
However, worrying about correctly pronouncing any Bible names is pretty silly, because we mispronounce virtually all Bible names. Jesus, for example, was pronounced Yay-sous... but that was the Greek pronunciation, which no one really called him. In the contemporary language of 1st Century Israel, he was probably called Yeh-h-suah. But the Pshittas say that was only what he was called, for his given name was really EliAzar (Elee-ah-zar).
The fact that 1st Century Christians changed the pronunciation and spelling of Jesus' name without record of any major battles, proves to me that exact pronunciations aren't important. So I'll go with Jehovah.
If you really want to read a mispronounced name, do some research on the Hebrew pronunciation of Eve.
I'm too concidering the matter like Jim, following the principle in Ecclesiastes 7:16,17 (NWT):
16 Do not become righteous overmuch, nor show yourself excessively wise. Why should you cause desolation to yourself? 17 Do not be wicked overmuch, nor become foolish. Why should you die when it is not your time? 18 It is better that you should take hold of the one, but from the other also do not withdraw your hand;
So I do not worry too much about the precise pronunciation.
But there is a prophecy that after the battle at Armageddon Jehovah God will give a pure litteral language to all survivors. Then they will call upon the name of Jehovah correctly. Until then we will have to wait for the right pronunciation.
“‘Therefore keep yourselves in expectation of me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘till the day of my rising up to [the] booty, for my judicial decision is to gather nations, for me to collect together kingdoms, in order to pour out upon them my denunciation, all my burning anger; for by the fire of my zeal all the earth will be devoured. 9 For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.’ Sephaniah 3:8,9 (NWT)
I can't believe in the today's WT explaination that the pure language is the "truth" written in the WT. I rather believe that the prophecy is about a litteral pure language.
Then about the absence of the name Jehovah in the Model prayer.
Jesus said in Matthew 6:9-13 (NWT):
“YOU must pray, then, this way:
“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. 11 Give us today our bread for this day; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.’
He instructed us to approach Jehovah God as Our Father. Why? Especially appropriate is this to all christians who have an adoption as sons.
When my son, 10 years old approaches me by Jan, instead of father, I do not like it. But I've not yet explained to him why. Maybe I've not showed him enought attention.
So I think that's the point why christians who have got the adoption should approach God as Father in prayer, even using a more familiar word, according to Romans 8:15 (NWT):
but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!â€
This hebrew word (I suppose) Abba, is in English the same as Daddy, I suppose.
But I think it's logic that everyone who is a disciple of Christ even if he is not yet adopted, prays in the way Jesus instructed.
Best regards Jan
Yes, "abba" or "Papa" is certainly appropriate.
I remember an old WT where they suggested that the "pure language" was Hebrew. But even that is silly, because they wrongly concluded that Hebrew was the language of Moses. However, Hebrew linguists agree that the language of the Israelites changed quite a bit after their exile in Egypt. Parts of Genesis, Job, and one of the Psalms is written in this more ancient language called Ugarit.
As for their conclusion that the new language is their "truth:" this is the result of their wrong assumption that, "Babylon the Great has fallen" and "God's Kingdom rules." So, many Hebrew prophecies must be given a twist to indicate that they've already been fulfilled.
You can see the physical changes in the written language of Hebrew.
The early forms were like cuneform tablets of other cultures. In the DSS you see both Paleo-Hebraic characters from the time of King David and the 'modern' changes at the time of Jesus.
Yes, "abba" or "Papa" is certainly appropriate.
I remember an old WT where they suggested that the "pure language" was Hebrew. But even that is silly, because they wrongly concluded that Hebrew was the language of Moses. However, Hebrew linguists agree that the language of the Israelites changed quite a bit after their exile in Egypt. Parts of Genesis, Job, and one of the Psalms is written in this more ancient language called Ugarit.
As for their conclusion that the new language is their "truth:" this is the result of their wrong assumption that, "Babylon the Great has fallen" and "God's Kingdom rules." So, many Hebrew prophecies must be given a twist to indicate that they've already been fulfilled.
Yes very funny when you see the changes in the writing styles of Hebrew. Mystiscism is also involved. The changes are dramatic.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hebrew.htm
The writing impliments changed, thus the style had to.
This is worth a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve
Eve Hebrew: חַוָּה‎, ḤawwÄ, "living one"
In the ancient Near East, kings were called the "image of god", symbolising their rule by divine appointment: the phrase may therefore indicate that mankind is God's regent on earth. Rev 5:10
The traditional expression is the tree in the garden is the tree of the knowlege of "good and evil", but tov wa-ra is a fixed expression denoting "everything," The tree of all knowledge.
Yes, by Vicky... you missed the best part... "Eve was Adam's second wife, as his first wife Lilith refused to be in an unequal relationship."
I'll bet that Adam had kind of a sunken chest from losing all those ribs!
Boy, it amazes me where technical programs find all their "experts!"
And my understanding of pronunciation of the name of "Eve" in Hebrew was H' Hwa-hah. To show the influence that Greek had on the OT, you can see that the name Eve is actually a mispronunciation of a Greek word for Life (Eue). This shows the Septuagint's heavy influence on early Christianity.
OK Jim I have read about Lilith.
Is there any inference to her in the Bible?
Is there a connection between hawah and Jeohawah?
Sorry my Hebrew is rubbish.
Sorry, so's mine Vickie. I guess the Jews are quite like the Mormons in the folks they make up to tell a story. This one was a revelation to me.
And yeah, I see what you mean about the similarities between H'Hwahah and Ye-ho-wah (which was more likely pronounced Ye-h'-wa-ha since there is no silent H in Hebrew). We've always been taught that Jehovah means "He Who Causes to Be," however, it sounds more like it means "The Life Giver," but what do I know. As was pointed out earlier, Hebrew has changed so much that I doubt anyone really understands its earlier nuances. But there is always some scholar willing to tell us what is fact, when they really don't know anything.
There's a program on TV right now that states "turkeys were once vicious raptors." You know how much proof the have of that... but if so, I'll bet they were still delicious... with dressing and gravy... YUM!
My work with the Septuagint has taught me what an important role the Septuagint has played in our modern Bible and early Christianity. Why, many of our modern Bible book names (such as Genesis, Exodus, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, etc.) are Greek not Hebrew, and I wonder which great "Christian scholar" it was who decided that we should get away from the Greek text quoted throughout the NT by Jesus and the Apostles, and go back to a more modern Hebrew text. Sounds like a Pharisee influence.