Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

The Watchtower claims that apostle Paul submited himself to a Governing Body of apostles in the first centry. And they use this as an argument why all Jehovah's witnesses must do the same, to submit themself to today's Governing Body in the Watchtower society. I believed this since childhood. But futher examination of the Holy Scriptures has shown me that Paul did not submit himself to any Governing Body, and that there was not any such in the first centry.

With in 2 weeks I've listened through Matthew to Ephesians a couple of times while working in my earfones. It have convinced me even more that the Watchtower have tried to say something about the first centry christians that did not really exist.

Yesturday I came across a place where apostle Paul says: that by way of a revelation the sacred secret was made known to me, just as I wrote previously in brief.-Ephesians 3:3
Here Paul says he got to know about the sacred secret by the way of revelation. That should mean that he was not taught by the other apostles, but got the truth from Jesus Christ.
To Galatians he said the same thing: For I put YOU on notice, brothers, that the good news which was declared by me as good news is not something human; 12 for neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught [it], except through revelation by Jesus Christ. -Galatians 1:11,12

It is quite obvious that he worked in Christ independently from the other apostles. The next verses (17-19) confirms that even more: Neither did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles previous to me, but I went off into Arabia, and I came back again to Damascus. 18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ce´phas, and I stayed with him for fifteen days. 19 But I saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.

How could he miss to meet the other apostles while visiting Cephas (apostle Peter) for 15 days? That must mean there was no Governing Body in Jerusalem. I would guess that the apostles where scattered in different congregations.

What about the Watchtower-society's main argument for a Governing Body based on Acts chapter 15. There it is written how the issue of circumcision was handeled. Verses 1,2 and 6 says: And certain men came down from Ju·de´a and began to teach the brothers: “Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.” 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar´na·bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar´na·bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.
6 And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair.

The WT says that this shows that apostle Paul did not decide on this matter by himself, but submitted himself to the Governing Body in Jerusalem. And this is an example for all Jehovah's witnesses to follow.

But is that the point of this passage in the Bible? No, but to the contrary you can see that the false teaching came from Judea, where Jerusalem is the capital. The problem was serious, because many of the elders in Jerusalem had this wrong idea, that circumcision was necessary for salvation. And how could apostle Paul resist this idea outside Jerusalem if most of the christians in Jerualem believed wrongly that circumcision was required? So apostle Paul had no choise than go to Jerusalem and put things right, he knew that at least some of the apostles where on his side in this matter.
The verses 7 and 8 really shows that there was a big confusion about the circumcission among the christians in Jerusalem in those days:
And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place, Peter rose and said to them...

So, infact if apostle Paul would not have faught for the truth, this problem would have remained, who knows how long?

So, there was no Governing Body in the first centry. And it was an exeption that the apostles came together with elders of Jerusalem to decide on a matters of beliefs. And apostle Paul as an apostle was not subordinated to other apostles but they had all knowledge directly from Jesus and where guided by him and holy spirit.

With much brotherly love
Jan

Hi Jan

The Apostles formed an important function and role in the early formative years of Christianity. They had sat and learned at the feet of Jesus, including Matthias, and had been at Pentecost to receive the Holy Spirit. Peter's standing up at the meeting where the circumcision issue was addressed shows his authority and the respect he garnered.

Was it Corporate in function, no. The Holy Spirit did guide and protect the congregations. Letters from the missionary Paul and from the Apostles that circulated kept errant teachings at bay.

The Truth was simple. These were Jews who knew their Torah.
The identity of Jesus from Nazareth as the Messiah and details about the Kingdom of God and the Resurrection where extensions of OT teachings not a new religion.

The Gnostics tried to bring their ideas into the Christian Faith in the time of the Apostles and were exposed. Later, during the era of the Bishops from the Hellenized world the corruptions of their schooling in Aristotelian concepts of substance and essence found footing in the Churches. It to has been exposed.

Your brother in Christ

designs

Jan,

Your post brought a smile to my face. I remember when I first realized what you explained so well. Amazing isn't it? The connections and assumptions that can be made by linking random scriptures?

What truth are contained in these words.

Heb 8:11 And they shall not each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.

1Th 4:9 But regarding brotherly love, you do not need that I write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

Joh 13:13 You call Me the Teacher, and Lord, and you say well, for I AM.

:heartbeat:
Lynn

What I find interesting is that Galatians was written in Antioch. The term "Christian" was applied to first century believers in Antioch and Paul stated clearly how and why he had to rebuke Peter publicly in Antioch for his support of this circumcision issue (It's all there in Galatians 2). How could Peter, who baptized Cornelius, who watched as the gifts of the spirit came upon he and his family, start prejudicing himself (and Barnabas) before this unholy group?

If there existed a Governing Body, surely Paul would have trekked up to Jerusalem to take up his case there, but he set matters straight there in Antioch, nipping the false teaching in the bud before it festered among the 'dogs of the circumcision.'

Love,

sw

Hi smoldering wick, that was an interesting observation, that the believers were first in antioch called christians.
Here are the Bible-verses:
So he went off to Tarsus to make a thorough search for Saul 26 and, after he found him, he brought him to Antioch. It thus came about that for a whole year they gathered together with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.
-Acts 11:25,26 (NWT)

Really an other heavy argument against the idea about a Governing Body in the first centry.
Paul actually reproved some christians who wanted to govern as kings in Corinth saying:
YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.

Is it not nice that we can share with encouraging thoughts here on this forum? :thumbsup:

With brotherly love
Jan

Hi Jan

Thank you for your encouraging posts.

Re: "...first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians. (NWT)

It seems many or most (if not all) other translations do not include the phrase "by divine providence".

Act 11:26

(ASV) and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that even for a whole year they were gathered together with the church, and taught much people, and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

(ISV) When he found him, he brought him to Antioch, and for a whole year they were guests of the church and taught a large crowd. It was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.


Christian love and appreciation,

gogh

Jesus said: “ 8 But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers.” Matthew 23:8. Jesus words put all Christians on an equal level as far as not being elevated as any sort of centralized governing body. Guidance, group as well as individual depending on what was needed, came via the inspired Scriptures of the times, by the gifts of the spirit, the teachings and instructions of Jesus when he walked the earth and post-resurrection, and even direct angelic visitations to individuals and by Jesus himself. Persons had different gifts - that used in concert - made the body of Christ a synergistic unit for the up building of the faithful, but in my view was never a central authoritative body even in the local congregations. There were persons functioning in leadership roles - both men and woman - but not as a function of being a governing body.

The beauty of the New Covenant is that everyone is equally empowered to be faithful and discreet slaves, using the talents given them by the Master each in their own way. Jesus said that if you want to be great, then you have to figure out how to be least – not so easy to do in a world where “great” is synonymous with position and authority. Jesus was truly “great”, yet even he deferred that title to his Heavenly Father and conducted himself humbly as a least one always looking for the interests of others, to help them develop their own spiritual qualities and not be spiritual cripples - followers of other mere men.

Centralized ecclesiastical authority structures evolved over time - not as a result of instructions by Jesus to so do - but as a result of men who took on “clergy” type roles, while others took on “laity” roles. This is a natural dynamic (leaders and leadees), and one that persons need to resist turning into what eventually developed, which was formal offices of bishops, archbishops, and pope structures. The Watchtower’s version of a “governing body” is no different than what the Catholic Church has going, a paid clergy class that the laity supports and accepts as spiritual guides in all matters of faith instead of understanding that its individuals that are required to work out their own salvations. It’s amazing that JWs can’t see this, but then that’s the nature of deception and self delusion - where persons are seen and accepted as ministers of righteousness. This is not to say that the motive of the men taking these roles is not pure, but the motive of the clergy of the Catholic Church and other churches have men that are likewise well motivated around a centralized body of some sort, that dictates the faith to the rank and file. But, this is something Jesus said to not do.

There are many examples where persons were individually empowered to carry out certain acts apart from any centralized body in Jerusalem or anywhere else. The angel appeared directly to the gentile Roman officer Cornelius, and told him to send for Peter who at the time was in Joppa. Cornelius sent his men, other gentiles, to find Peter and bring him up to Caes•a•re´a. By then Peter had had the dream of the four footed creeping things that he was told to eat. While still perplexed about the meaning of whole experience Peter got the Holy Spirit, and then perceived that non-Jews were being invited into the Way. This guidance came straight from spirit being sources as what happened with Paul’s conversion.

The whole process took only a few days and did not have any involvement with any central body. Peter was an apostle, but even he was clueless, “perplexed”, about what was going on - where Cornelius and his gentile band were given instructions directly by the angel. Peter went to Jerusalem to relate this fantastic experience, so obviously they were clueless about what was to happen and had not issued any official instructions. In fact they resisted Peter’s experience for a while because they were stuck on the everyone had to circumcised model that Paul later had to come up and deal with.

Paul and Barnabus likewise acted outside any central guidance from Jerusalem when they were commissioned by the congregation in Antioch to go on their missionary tours. The Holy Spirit was upon them in obvious ways in that they healed the sick and raised the dead to verify they were sent from God, and that’s all that was needed. No central authority body was evidently involved in that action as one would expect if indeed a governing body existed.

All Christians are empowered to pray directly to the Father through the Son for guidance on all matters of faith, and I believe can expect to be directly answered. Maybe our answers aren’t accompanied by angelic visits or flashes of light while walking down a road, but guidance is guidance and I think can be done in non-obvious ways. This I think is where eyes of faith come in, in that we need to train our perceptive powers to determine both right and wrong based on the Scriptures and not expect centralized authority structures to tell us what to do. This is a measure of our faith and how well we have taken on the authority to be masters - not of anyone else’s faith - but of our own faith in working to be examples and not taskmasters.



v r

Hi veritas re,
I agree in much that you wrote. Yesturday thanks to Willa I found a lot of interesting reading with similar thoughts on http://members.shaw.ca/homechristian/docs/homeintro.htm
It's wonderful to read how Jesus Christ leads his followers on earth by holy spirit and by the Scriptures.

But I have noticed that not all have the anointing from above to teach them all the things.
27 And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. 1John 2:27 (NWT)

But those who have got this should of course use their gifts to enlighten others in their congregation. That could result in that others grow spiritually to the point that Jehovah God gives them the anointing too.

Through http://www.jehovahs-witness.net today I found the Watchtower which had the "new light" about anointing. Mostly a very good article. And I'm happy that they changed their mind in this matter. Here is the Watchtower with this change, in the article "Counted Worthy to Receive a Kingdom" http://www.box.net/services/ipaper_by_sc...crrc9mq6h0

Brotherly greetings Jan

Hi Peeps!
Jesus gave us the truth,
then Satan organized it.
:huh: