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How do you interpret this?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. - Ro 11:25 ASV

Dear brother RR,
You ask the question:

Lets have a look at the context because I think it emphasises the point being made.

I am afraid it is the NWT I use but it is good enough.... :)

Romans 11:
25 For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. 30 For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.



Paul reinforces the point that was made in the section you quoted:

“Just as it is written: The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.”

And again it is emphasized:

but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret.

And this is the whole point of the doxology at the end. This is often forgotten and the doxology is taken in isolation:

33 O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments [are] and past tracing out his ways [are]! 34 For “who has come to know Jehovah’s mind, or who has become his counselor?” 35 Or, “Who has first given to him, so that it must be repaid to him?” 36 Because from him and by him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen.

We cannot understand God's unsearchable judgements. In a wonderful inexplicable way from their first century viewpoint, Paul is saying God will once again restore Israel, this time the restoration is into Christ's Christian fold.

This IMHO (and my only reservation is the "now" in the text) is what Paul is saying in this section of scripture.



I feel Paul is indicating that God will keep his promises to the ones of Israel that turn back to Him at the future Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to earth to bring an end to this system. They all will have a chance to be taken into the one fold and sealed before the storm breaks.

Whatever God does, it his Divine Will that will take place, and if my Lord and Master loves me I will be happy to be wrong about any understandings of prophecy I think I now might have.

Christ's peace and well being to you and all (Jew and non-Jew)
Warm Christian love
Derek

At the completion of all things a lot of eyes will be opened - even our own. We will not be looking through a hazy metal mirror but will be face to face with the reality.

Romans 11:
25 For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved.

I think the dulling of Israel's sensibilities is best explained by John 12:37-43. Israel was not inclined to listen to either Jesus or his apostles (Rom. 10:2-3).

Instead, most of the interest was shown by people of the nations (Acts 15:7-8).

The tricky part of this passage is where it says that the filling of the number of the Gentiles is what saves Israel. But I think this is not as hard as it sounds.

First of all, if Israel only continued to be the chosen people, then it would not be saved, because very few Jews accepted Christianity.

So the only way to save Israel would be by allowing others to become Israelites. And the people of the nations filled this role (Rom. 2:28-29).

And that is how Israel is saved.

28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

Here he speaks of Jewish persecution against Christians. But he says the Jews nevertheless merit respect, because they had been chosen by God.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret.

Even though they have done wrong, God does not regret choosing them.

30 For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.

God showed the Gentiles mercy when they had not known him. Now he is showing the Jews mercy when they do not know him. It all evens out.

I beleive it is somewhat like this post "God showed the Gentiles mercy when they had not known him. Now he is showing the Jews mercy when they do not know him. It all evens out. "

My current understanding is that the two tree's are those from both groups.

This to me corelates directly to the Jews being grafted back into the tree due to God's promise to Abraham. I beleive this to be towards the literal isreal not the spiritual which is comprised of both groups.

TD

Hi TD,
This seems the best way to understand the text from the plain reading.  I reasearched this text, when I was a JW, in WTS publication indices (c.30 years ago).  At that time there were hardly any references to this section of scripture. A distinct paucity of information. I wonder why?:D

shalom
Derek

What is not generally comprehended is that the choosing of the seed of Abraham was not just for the blessing of the seed of Abraham. The selected "seed" was and is to "bless all the families of the earth." In other words, Israel was elected to be an instrument of blessing to the non-elect!

To say Israel had lost their chance to be blessers by not accepting Jesus Christ is to ignore the Apostle Paul's powerful discourse in Romans 11. Yes, "the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Romans 11:7). Only a few accepted the call to become Christians, but Paul concludes that this blindness would only last until the Church was complete, "Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25). After that time, "Thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, the Deliverer will come from Zion, and he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Romans 11:25,26). Some Christians are very enthusiastic about the present regathering of Israel, but their expectation is that only a small remnant will be saved and up to 10 million damned. If that were true, it would be a gross exaggeration for the Apostle Paul to say, "All Israel will be saved." Then too, to say this has already happened that "all the families of the earth" have been blessed would also be a gross exaggeration on God's part.

What is also not appreciated generally is just who is this chosen, elected "seed"? The promise is that the seed would be as the "stars of heaven" as well as the "sands of the seashore." The elect seed would be both spiritual and earthly. Most Christians usually only appreciate half the promise, that is, regarding the heavenly seed. But the spiritual
"seed" will work together with the earthly "seed" to bless all the families of the earth. The Christian elect will work through the earthly elect to bless all the nations (Isaiah 2:1-4)

RR

The inability to comprehend this passage of scripture is at the root of not understanding God's plan from the beginning and specifically the role of Israel and the role of Christ. I discovered something the other day that is only comprehended by Bible Students in this regard. It is that the NWT in Jer 16:18 and Is 40:2 which it references, both eliminate the word "double." Every other translation that I've checked says "double." Without understanding the importance of this double punishment, then Israel's chronology cannot be comprehended. I guess the WT doesn't consider it very important. But it certainly goes a long way to promote it's false religion that writes Israel out of God's script as still being his chosen people through whom all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Jer 16:18 "I will repay them double for their wickedness and their sin, because they have defiled my land with the lifeless forms of their vile images and have filled my inheritance with their detestable idols." :detective:

I think we know why there were "hardly any references in their publications." They plugged themselves ( especially the "earthly class") into the place of fleshly Israel. Those who hold to this view will try to explain around this verse just about every way imaginable, instead of believing what it simply states.

Interestingly, I tried to get the opinions of a very intelligent elder friend of mine on this chapter (a while back) and he continually side-stepped the issue and finally absolutly refused to comment on it. :thinking:

I wonder why?:D

John