12-14-2008, 03:23 AM
isomam said:-
This post is one that I would consider to be a "benchmark" in this discussion. If I knew how, I would nominate it as a "Gem of the Week." 
#59 Lodoner stated: ...
The New Covenant (NC) in a nutshell: According to Ex 19:5-6, one of the Old Covenant's purposes, was to produce a "kingdom of priests". It did not do that. The majority of fleshly Israelites were not priests or later, of royal lineage. Only the Levites and Judah respectively, could claim that. Also, the blood of animals could not permanently wash away sins.
Jesus arrived as prophesied, and revealed that the kingdom would be in heaven.
Comment: Rev. 21:2-3, 24-27 shows the reader the 'New Jerusalem' will "COME DOWN, TO EARTH."
We will all some how come down with it, to run things here on 'earth.' That sounds so exciting!
Londoner, here is just one more of the many, many errors of the WT 'book' studies. They preached to us from those books telling us the "faithful of old would never see heaven. Again, Jesus proves them wrong...
Matthews 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Londoner continues with a WT thought: So, a new covenant was required. The blood Christ provided as the ransom sacrifice permanently washed away the sins of those who believed and had faith. That blood also sanctified those in the NC (kingdom of priests), so that they could serve God as priests in heaven. The NC fulfilled the prophesy of a "kingdom of priests", because every single member of the anointed Christian congregation would be a "priest" (NC) and a "king" (Christ's kingdom covenant).
Comment: Londoner, why use the word "also" in your statement there? Lets run with it shall we? Doing so will help expose the WT 'book' studies as to, "Why only 144000 are sanctified."
"In this strict biblical sense, Jesus christ is the Mediator for only 144000 people." April 1, pg. 31 1971 WT
Comment: The NWT bible has many errors. my friend, Hebrews 10:10 is one of them. The Apostle Paul never finished that verse with the word 'time,' as in all "time." Its not found in the Strong's concordance because it is not found in the Greek in that passage. He is the mediator for all because he is the one who sanctified all.
Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Londoner states: Jehovah chooses who He wants to be in the NC (kingdom of priests) by baptising them with holy spirit or "anointing" them. They are "spirit begotten" or "born again". That is also why the bible says they are "called" or "chosen".
Comment: Whosoever that has chosen Christ my friend, are the ones God has chosen, (John 1:12,13). This would include the Great Crowd, and the 144000 mentioned in Revelation, 19:1. Read verse 12 again.
Also Jesus said he came to call 'not to call the righteous,' but the unrighteous. This means the gospel was written to all the Jews and every Gentile that feared God. ( ' Not so says the WT' ). People are called through the gospel.
Born again? What kept Nicodemas from being born again that night? He walked away the same way he walked in, ('in Adam,') in sin. He walked away still in condemnation, (Romans 8:1). Had he died that night, he would have had to die again later on, (twice). His name would not be found in the book of life and therefore wind up facing the Great White Thrown judgement, and there, would have to be judged with all the unrighteous who have ever lived. All these will die ..'again. for their lawlessness and faithlessness.' In other words my friend, those who are born only once, (in sin) will die twice. But those who are born twice, will only have to die once. All these will be found written in the book of life.
Acts 26:18 "Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent."
1 John 5:13 also disproves the WT lie, (that tells people that every thing written in the New Testament was only written to their so called anointed, and not to each believer. This flies in the face of holy script!
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
London my friend, (above), using WT dogma, that the N.T. passages here are only applying to 144000 people, one must conclude here, that 99% of JW's need more faith!
My dear Londoner, in light of scripture, Watchtower theology, (dogma) has never been well thought out.
It is glaringly obvious that your statements, (like the one below here,) are trying to divide the flock, the congregation, where Jesus said there would be none, ("except for nationalities!") - Jn. 10:16,Romans 3:22 corrects you. 'There is no distinction within the congregation Londoner.'
The blood of the ransom washes away the sins and provides forgiveness for those who hope to live forever on earth in God's original purpose and also those who He chooses to be king-priests as part of the NC.
Londoner, if the blood washes away the sins, then these same ones are now ...'sanctified, (purified,) and therefore in the N. C.
Whoever is led by the Spirit of God are sons (and daughters) of God, (Romans 8:14,) and only these, are sanctified. Those who are not led by the Spirit, ('sons of God,') are lost. Galatians 5:18 explains why.You can not separate the two. Regardless how your 'book' studies worded it. The congregation (as a whole) is sanctified not just 144000 people, and all being his sons of the kingdom, is where they placed their hope, puts them in the N.C. They are His people as promised in Jer. 31:31.
Londoner, whoever puts faith in him is just like one of those who the old testament high priest represented! (With animal blood) he sanctified himself and, the ..........'people.' Hebrews 10:10 proves it all by it's self. More than 144000 people were outside that gate, Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
They all had to live holy lives Londoner, not just the priest, because God is Holy, so each of us must live holy lives, not just your 144000. Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Exodus 12: 47-49 clears all this up. It represented how "whosoever," within the congregation were/is allowed to partake. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get the connection between here and 1 Cor. 10:1, ('all,') 2, ('all'), 3 (all), 4,('all'),18, and 1Cor. 11:17-32 . There, Paul never said, "Do not partake because you are not worthy, but, "Do not partake in an unworthy manner." and John 6:53, 56, Romans 8:1.
The WT would have us to think God has lowered his standards. ("Its ok if 99% of my people are not sanctified and only 99% of them not partaking in rememberance.")
Its no different in the congregation today Londoner. Is not 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 speaking to each believer in the congregation in your... "book" studies?
"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his Holy Spirit.
Londoner who in the Kingdom halls would you say this applies to today? Just 144000? No!
It is the same today. All who put their trust in our High Priest are also sanctified by his blood, Acts 26:18
"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
londoner continues: The ransom and the NC are not the same. The NC is the legal "agreement" Jehovah uses to justify bringing humans to heaven (Heb 9:1-10). They are obviously linked, but are different aspects of God's provision for salvation.
Londoner the 'legal means' in which God used, was the 'blood of Christ. That is what is obviously linked to the New Covenant. The principle has already been explained and established to you before, (in the many wonderful well thought out post above). Not WT mumbo jumbo that you have accepted from their 'book' studies.
Those who are 'justified as righteous, (by believing their 'bible' studies,) are the ones who are in the N. C. ("Not so says the WT").
Here is living proof what the Watchtower gave the majority of Jehovah Witnesses for abstaining from partaking of the Lord’s Table at their Communion of the Lord's supper was ....
“The Jonadabs are not even justified, because the receiving of life everlasting depends upon their obedience within God’s organization and faithfully abiding there until the wrath of God is passed at Armageddon.” WT April 1, 1938 p. 104
[color=#0000FF]The word “Jonadabs,” was at that time given to the ‘average’ JW within the organization who were told that they could not partake of the Lord’s Supper because they were not yet justified as righteous in the eyes of God. As I read this it made me feel as if me and my brothers and sisters had been betrayed!
This would also keep innocent minds from thinking they could be in the N.C. that Jesus paid for.
This unbiblical teaching continued,.....To my amazement I read in the “Life Everlasting In The Sons of God,” book, 1966. p. 391, “The Great Crowd are taught to believe they don’t receive justification promised in the N. T. The Great Crowd will not be justified or declared righteous either now nor then as the 144000 heavenly heirs have been justified while in the flesh
Each believer is the righteousness of God in Christ! Each has been made right with God. Justified: “Just as if it never happened." 1 John 1:9 keeps us sanctified. It purifies us. ”Each can partake because each is justified by faith, and are now, (‘at last!’) at peace with our Father, (Romans 5:1).
I think, the Watchtower has betrayed its followers in all these subjects. That is why I left them. Jesus said, "anyone who loves anyone more than me, is not worthy of me. " I made my choice and am so glad of it. (Thank you Father, Thank you Jesus.)
My friend Londoner concludes: Those who believe all are in the NC are mixing-up the two.
Londoner
This post is one that I would consider to be a "benchmark" in this discussion. If I knew how, I would nominate it as a "Gem of the Week." Disciple Wrote:
#59 Lodoner stated: ...The New Covenant (NC) in a nutshell: According to Ex 19:5-6, one of the Old Covenant's purposes, was to produce a "kingdom of priests". It did not do that. The majority of fleshly Israelites were not priests or later, of royal lineage. Only the Levites and Judah respectively, could claim that. Also, the blood of animals could not permanently wash away sins.
Jesus arrived as prophesied, and revealed that the kingdom would be in heaven.
Comment: Rev. 21:2-3, 24-27 shows the reader the 'New Jerusalem' will "COME DOWN, TO EARTH."
We will all some how come down with it, to run things here on 'earth.' That sounds so exciting!
Londoner, here is just one more of the many, many errors of the WT 'book' studies. They preached to us from those books telling us the "faithful of old would never see heaven. Again, Jesus proves them wrong...
Matthews 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Londoner continues with a WT thought: So, a new covenant was required. The blood Christ provided as the ransom sacrifice permanently washed away the sins of those who believed and had faith. That blood also sanctified those in the NC (kingdom of priests), so that they could serve God as priests in heaven. The NC fulfilled the prophesy of a "kingdom of priests", because every single member of the anointed Christian congregation would be a "priest" (NC) and a "king" (Christ's kingdom covenant).
Comment: Londoner, why use the word "also" in your statement there? Lets run with it shall we? Doing so will help expose the WT 'book' studies as to, "Why only 144000 are sanctified."
"In this strict biblical sense, Jesus christ is the Mediator for only 144000 people." April 1, pg. 31 1971 WT
Comment: The NWT bible has many errors. my friend, Hebrews 10:10 is one of them. The Apostle Paul never finished that verse with the word 'time,' as in all "time." Its not found in the Strong's concordance because it is not found in the Greek in that passage. He is the mediator for all because he is the one who sanctified all.
Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Londoner states: Jehovah chooses who He wants to be in the NC (kingdom of priests) by baptising them with holy spirit or "anointing" them. They are "spirit begotten" or "born again". That is also why the bible says they are "called" or "chosen".
Comment: Whosoever that has chosen Christ my friend, are the ones God has chosen, (John 1:12,13). This would include the Great Crowd, and the 144000 mentioned in Revelation, 19:1. Read verse 12 again.
Also Jesus said he came to call 'not to call the righteous,' but the unrighteous. This means the gospel was written to all the Jews and every Gentile that feared God. ( ' Not so says the WT' ). People are called through the gospel.
Born again? What kept Nicodemas from being born again that night? He walked away the same way he walked in, ('in Adam,') in sin. He walked away still in condemnation, (Romans 8:1). Had he died that night, he would have had to die again later on, (twice). His name would not be found in the book of life and therefore wind up facing the Great White Thrown judgement, and there, would have to be judged with all the unrighteous who have ever lived. All these will die ..'again. for their lawlessness and faithlessness.' In other words my friend, those who are born only once, (in sin) will die twice. But those who are born twice, will only have to die once. All these will be found written in the book of life.
Acts 26:18 "Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent."
1 John 5:13 also disproves the WT lie, (that tells people that every thing written in the New Testament was only written to their so called anointed, and not to each believer. This flies in the face of holy script!
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
London my friend, (above), using WT dogma, that the N.T. passages here are only applying to 144000 people, one must conclude here, that 99% of JW's need more faith!
My dear Londoner, in light of scripture, Watchtower theology, (dogma) has never been well thought out.
It is glaringly obvious that your statements, (like the one below here,) are trying to divide the flock, the congregation, where Jesus said there would be none, ("except for nationalities!") - Jn. 10:16,Romans 3:22 corrects you. 'There is no distinction within the congregation Londoner.'
The blood of the ransom washes away the sins and provides forgiveness for those who hope to live forever on earth in God's original purpose and also those who He chooses to be king-priests as part of the NC.
Londoner, if the blood washes away the sins, then these same ones are now ...'sanctified, (purified,) and therefore in the N. C.
Whoever is led by the Spirit of God are sons (and daughters) of God, (Romans 8:14,) and only these, are sanctified. Those who are not led by the Spirit, ('sons of God,') are lost. Galatians 5:18 explains why.You can not separate the two. Regardless how your 'book' studies worded it. The congregation (as a whole) is sanctified not just 144000 people, and all being his sons of the kingdom, is where they placed their hope, puts them in the N.C. They are His people as promised in Jer. 31:31.
Londoner, whoever puts faith in him is just like one of those who the old testament high priest represented! (With animal blood) he sanctified himself and, the ..........'people.' Hebrews 10:10 proves it all by it's self. More than 144000 people were outside that gate, Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
They all had to live holy lives Londoner, not just the priest, because God is Holy, so each of us must live holy lives, not just your 144000. Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Exodus 12: 47-49 clears all this up. It represented how "whosoever," within the congregation were/is allowed to partake. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get the connection between here and 1 Cor. 10:1, ('all,') 2, ('all'), 3 (all), 4,('all'),18, and 1Cor. 11:17-32 . There, Paul never said, "Do not partake because you are not worthy, but, "Do not partake in an unworthy manner." and John 6:53, 56, Romans 8:1.
The WT would have us to think God has lowered his standards. ("Its ok if 99% of my people are not sanctified and only 99% of them not partaking in rememberance.")
Its no different in the congregation today Londoner. Is not 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 speaking to each believer in the congregation in your... "book" studies?
"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his Holy Spirit.
Londoner who in the Kingdom halls would you say this applies to today? Just 144000? No!
It is the same today. All who put their trust in our High Priest are also sanctified by his blood, Acts 26:18
"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
londoner continues: The ransom and the NC are not the same. The NC is the legal "agreement" Jehovah uses to justify bringing humans to heaven (Heb 9:1-10). They are obviously linked, but are different aspects of God's provision for salvation.
Londoner the 'legal means' in which God used, was the 'blood of Christ. That is what is obviously linked to the New Covenant. The principle has already been explained and established to you before, (in the many wonderful well thought out post above). Not WT mumbo jumbo that you have accepted from their 'book' studies.
Those who are 'justified as righteous, (by believing their 'bible' studies,) are the ones who are in the N. C. ("Not so says the WT").
Here is living proof what the Watchtower gave the majority of Jehovah Witnesses for abstaining from partaking of the Lord’s Table at their Communion of the Lord's supper was ....
“The Jonadabs are not even justified, because the receiving of life everlasting depends upon their obedience within God’s organization and faithfully abiding there until the wrath of God is passed at Armageddon.” WT April 1, 1938 p. 104
[color=#0000FF]The word “Jonadabs,” was at that time given to the ‘average’ JW within the organization who were told that they could not partake of the Lord’s Supper because they were not yet justified as righteous in the eyes of God. As I read this it made me feel as if me and my brothers and sisters had been betrayed!
This would also keep innocent minds from thinking they could be in the N.C. that Jesus paid for.
This unbiblical teaching continued,.....To my amazement I read in the “Life Everlasting In The Sons of God,” book, 1966. p. 391, “The Great Crowd are taught to believe they don’t receive justification promised in the N. T. The Great Crowd will not be justified or declared righteous either now nor then as the 144000 heavenly heirs have been justified while in the flesh
Each believer is the righteousness of God in Christ! Each has been made right with God. Justified: “Just as if it never happened." 1 John 1:9 keeps us sanctified. It purifies us. ”Each can partake because each is justified by faith, and are now, (‘at last!’) at peace with our Father, (Romans 5:1).
I think, the Watchtower has betrayed its followers in all these subjects. That is why I left them. Jesus said, "anyone who loves anyone more than me, is not worthy of me. " I made my choice and am so glad of it. (Thank you Father, Thank you Jesus.)
My friend Londoner concludes: Those who believe all are in the NC are mixing-up the two.
Londoner
Welcome to Paradise Cafe, Disciple! 
This post is one that I would consider to be a "benchmark" in this discussion. If I knew how, I would nominate it as a "Gem of the Week."
I have purposely chosen not to participate in the discussion, because Londoner and I have previously "discussed" this to death. He isn't going to budge from his self-exalting position. (Did he mention to you that he, -- in his own mind, -- is one of these "144,000" ... "SPECIALLY-anointed ones"? (The fact that ALL Christians are "anointed" [with holy spirit] is totally lost on him.)
Anyway, I just wanted to recognize this post of yours, Disciple, as one magnificent post that shines a much-needed light of truth on the matter. Worth reading twice. Or even more.
Thank you, ... isomam