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Why a thread such as this? Because authentic science harmonizes with, -- and often corroborates, -- God's Word, The Holy Bible. So ...

I thought I would post a few things which I have previously posted to Science Discussion Boards. I invite others to do the same. Only one request. Please verify that what you post is actually "Science," and not "Pseudo-Science." :read: :read: :read:

To that end, my first post (following this one) will address that very subject. :) ;) :ok:

Oh. Your comments are always welcome, of course. :thumbup: :grouphug: :thinking:

Science vs. Pseudo-Science.

1) “Investigation”: What is the difference between Science and Pseudo-Science?

Science is the result of repeatable, confirmable experiments and processes. Pseudo-science may reflect nothing more than the wishful thinking or the agenda (self-promotion) of the pseudo-scientist.

How can you distinguish between a scientific article and a pseudo-scientific one?

A scientific article is replete with references and cross-corroborating studies, experiments, and data. A pseudo-scientific article is obvious by its lack of such things. A pseudo-scientific article is long on assertions, leaps of logic, and hyperbole. A scientific article is, almost without exception, delivered in a calm and measured manner.

2) “Investigation” and “Opinion”: Do some research and come up with at least one example of each. The examples could be in the form of articles or topics. Explain why one is scientific while the other is not.

THE GOOD:

Evolution: A Theory In Crisis, by Michael Denton. Extremely well-documented; and, irrefutable, fact-based reasoning (imo). Dr. Denton is a world-renowned microbiologist, lecturer, writer, and teacher.

THE BAD:

Q: -- Who was Ernst Haeckel and what was his contribution towards supporting the theory of evolution?

A: -- Ernst Haeckel was a zealous promoter of Darwin's evolutionary theory in Germany. Unfortunately, like others before him (peppered moths and Piltdown Man being examples) he didn't let scientific facts get in the way of a good story. What is even more unfortunate is that his bio-genetic law is still promoted today as fact even though it is based on fraudulent data. His fraud was exposed by contemporary scientists in 1864 soon after it was published.

[Even] Evolutionary scientists are becoming more vocal in exposing Haeckel's fraudulent intent in his infamous embryo drawings.

Haeckel used images of embryos of various species to support his theory that different animals pass through, or 'recapitulate,' similar embryonic stages. But it was recently shown in the scientific journal Nature that Haeckel removed the limbs from the image of a young echidna embryo (and other species also) in order to make the young embryos look more alike than they do in real life. The removal of limbs was selective, as it was done only to particular developmental stages.

Haeckel's evolution-promoting motive is clear from the text accompanying his drawings: 'There is still no trace of the limbs or "extremities" in this stage of development...'. -- Nature, 8 March 2001, p. 144.

Darwin and others have reasoned that descendants along various evolutionary lineages would demonstrate similar embryonic morphologies during the earliest stages. Closely related organisms would show differences only during the latest stages, whereas distantly related ones should display ever widening differences as the embryo develops. Haeckel (1834-1919), a flamboyant German biologist, provided a series of drawings which conveniently demonstrated just this. These pictures appear even today in graduate-level biology textbooks, such as American Academy of Science President Bruce Alberts' Molecular Biology of the Cell, with no statement that this evidence is a well-established blatant fraud, a shameless fake. Even Darwin, who called this his 'strongest single class of facts', was duped.

Photographs of the embryos Haeckel selected demonstrate virtually no resemblance with his drawings. Additionally, Haeckel did not draw the first stage of growth, where closest resemblance was predicted, but selected precisely the stages where five (out of the seven) carefully selected vertebrate classes are least different. For the amphibian class the natural choice would have been a frog, which looks, however, very different than the other four organisms used, so a salamander was used as (uh) representative (ahem) for this class. Apparently all this was not good enough for him. 'In some cases, Haeckel used the same woodcut to print embryos that were supposedly from different classes' (p. 91).

Although the embryos vary in size from less than 1 mm to almost 10 mm, Haeckel portrayed them the same size. Wells points out that the processes of cleavage (subdivision in many separate cells without overall growth) and gastrulation (movement and rearrangement of the cells to form organs and other structures) proceed before the point in time drawn by Haeckel. Here is where Darwin's expectations should be tested, and there is 'certainly not a pattern in which the earliest stages are the most similar and later stages are more different' (p. 97). In fact, the evidence points clearly to unrelated lineages and not a common ancestor.

Another myth is the claim human embryos go through a fish-like stage and display gill slits. These pharyngeal folds are not gills.14 Ironically, they're not even gills in pharyngula-stage fish embryos, although they do develop into these later, 'but in a reptile, mammal, or bird they develop into other structures entirely (such as the inner ear and parathyroid gland)' (p. 107). In reptiles, mammals, and birds they never resemble gills, and what is observed are merely some parallel lines in the neck region.

Professor Douglas Futuyma, author of the 1998 textbook, Evolutionary Biology, responded in February 2000 via an internet forum to a critic who had accused him of lying by using Haeckel's drawings as evidence for evolution. He admitted he had not been aware of Haeckel's dishonesty, a rather staggering admission. It is important to always be skeptical of those endless, but transient 'proofs' for evolution. They reflect over-enthusiastic and selective use of data when it appears to support a pre-conceived evolutionary mind-set. Incidentally, Futuyma's admission was not an example of 'science' correcting itself, but the result of a 'creationist' setting the record straight (p. 109).

Taken from a review of "Icons of Evolution" by Jonathon Wells
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_was_Ernst_..._evolution

THE UGLY:

Julian Huxley (late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century evolutionist) was so unfathomably bold and shameless in his fraudulent "reconstructions" of archeologically-unearthed skeletal remains -- in an attempt to "manufacture" a "MISSING LINK" -- that he has generated his own icon.

To wit: Julian "HUCKSTER" Huxley.

So, Huxley and Dr. (Jeckyl) Haeckel have assured themselves permanent and prominent places in the Scientific "Hall of SHAME"!

Ethics in the scientific process.

Read Ethics in Science by Henry Bauer, Professor of Chemistry & Science Studies, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, available online at http://www.chem.vt.edu/chem-ed/ethics/hb...intro.html .

OR:

Read National Academy of Sciences, Washington, D.C., "On Being a Scientist: Responsible Conduct in Research, Publication, and Openness." http://books.nap.edu/readingroom/books/o...ation.html

3) “Opinion”: What did you learn from Professor Bauer's article? Or from the National Academy of Sciences article. Do you agree with his/their views?


I read Dr. Bauer’s article, Ethics in Science, online at the above web address.
http://www.chem.vt.edu/chem-ed/ethics/hb...intro.html .

I have been aware of fraud being somewhat prevalent in the scientific community for decades, now. But, I was a bit shocked to learn about Dr. James D. Watson admitting to getting data which he knew that the data’s owner would not have wanted him to see. He wrote about this, confessing freely, in his memoir, The Double Helix. Watson is best remembered, perhaps, as one of the two scientists who collaborated, working together on the early discoveries concerning the double-helix construction of the DNA molecule.

Do you agree with [Dr. Bauer]'s views? ABSOLUTELY!

Explain: In the short article (or excerpt) from Dr. Bauer, he cited no less than NINE separate incidences of tampering with data, tampering with evidence, outright plagiarism, scientific theft and fraud (for motives of personal aggrandizement on the part of the thief/fraudulent pseudo-scientist).

4) “Investigation” and “Opinion”: Decide whether each of the following scientific activities is ethical or unethical; and, if you decide they are unethical, explain why you feel that way. Scientist "A" publishes his/her findings and holds a press conference, then releases his/her data to peers.

a) Another scientist "B" reads about the results of "A", and tries to duplicate results without telling "A" about the trials. (Read my announcement titled “Key ideas” before you answer this question)
-– UNethical. This is scientific fraud, pure and simple.

b) Scientist "C" writes a review article about the discovery of A, but had nothing himself to do with the discovery. "C" cites the work done by "A." -– Ethical. In this case, Scientist “C” is acting as a journalist, to the benefit of the whole scientific community. Scientist “C” is not claiming any credit. He is merely reporting.

c) Scientist "D" is interviewed by the local media about the discovery, and mentions the evidence but apparently does not cite the work done by "A." – UNethical. Although not making any direct statement about the matter, Scientist “D” is leaving the inference comfortably ensconced that, -- somehow, -- he DID have something to do with the discovery. He could not be convicted in a court of law, but this certainly represents poor judgment, bordering on “unethical.”

d) Scientist "E" derides "A" for jumping to conclusions, without yet seeing the data."E" is interviewed and publishes an article about why the data are probably wrong. -– Oh, my. How much more UNETHICAL (!!!) could Scientist “E” 's behavior be?!? Somebody’s megalomaniacal complex (not uncommon in fields such as science) is showing!

Sorry, Iso - I know this is an uber-serious subject, but I cain't hep it.... it just reminds me of WT articles extolling their version of 'The Truth', 1914, 1919, the 144,000 anointed-onlies, allegiance to the F&DS, the blood policy, the shunning policy... and too much more. Is it a pseudo-religion? :yes:

Quote:
A pseudo-scientific article is long on assertions, leaps of logic, and hyperbole.



And now... back to the serious stuff. :huh:
(Love ya, btw. :airkiss:)
:peace:

Hi ISO!
The reason i agree that true science corroborates the truth as far as a creator God is concerned, is because I believe that YHWH is consistent in the methods he employs in the creative process. In everything, there is a thread leading to a consistent process. The discovery of these processes is true science. Once discovered, we can see that YHWH does not deviate from the very processes he devised in the first place. Therefore, there is a similarity in all living organisms, as well as in all inaniment "stuff".

The discovery of these processes, I believe, will be a never ending adventure in our quest to know the mind of God. If there is an apparent discrepancy between true science, and our believing in a creator God, the problem is ours to reconcile.

Of course, I write as a man of faith in things I can't see, or hope to understand in the near future. But is sure fun trying~! :happyheart:
Hi brother Isomam,

Initially, I guess, for example, 'string theory' was once an hypothesis?

[For the benefit of the initiated, an hypothesis is (I am quoting a dictionary):
1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.
2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.
3. The antecedent of a conditional statement.]


A theory of course is (another dictionary definition):
1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.


Science, particularly in the natural world, makes observations, collates and verifies them and looks for conclusions from those observations.

Fact: Birds migrate
Fact: Birds proved to migrate to specific areas by observation and banding (or ringing as we call it).
Fact: Migration paths of different species established by, observation, banding controls and radio tags, etc.

When we get to the 'crunch question' of how they migrate and as to what mechanisms they use, we now move into the area of hypothesis, theory and 'indicator' snippets of information.

On the subject of evolution, I do not think, brother Isomam, the issue as to the 'mode of Creation', is all that clear cut. Evolutionists cannot demonstrate a process that took a very long time, neither can creationist show a creature, God, has recently created.

The following article shows a evolutionist biologists viewpoint on the creation/evolution debate:

http://www.dimaggio.org/Evolution/meaning_of_theory.htm


For myself, I see the inter-relationships in bird species, which the study of genetics has advanced considerably and intuitively know there is much more going on than is satisfied by simplistic answers.....not that I was suggesting you were giving us an oversimplification :)

blessings
Derek
Derek, have I got the wrong end of the stick?
I thought this article to be very poorly written.

http://www.dimaggio.org/Evolution/meaning_of_theory.htm

Was that your point?

The ringing of birds produces data or 'facts'.
Although logic is also used, how the bird gets from A to B is theoretical.

The person who wrote the article, said certain things were fact, without producing any corroborative data, and certainly not data from disparate sources.

First we must have as many untainted facts supplied as possible, then we develop an hypothesis. As a good scientist we rigorously challenge that hypothesis with as much experimentation as is available (null hypothesis), and finally, not having been able to disprove our hypothesis, tentatively we write out our theory, as a thesis.

With enough data we can replace the hypo (under, substructure).
A true scientist will also avoid the hype (hyper-over).

vicky
Hi Vicky,
Regarding the literary quality of the article. I am no person to judge since my education is technical and not literary! :)

Stephen J.Gould is often quoted by creationists, and often dishonestly.
I merely quoted the article to show how an evolutionist viewed the debate.
I thought it interesting, and ironical, how his peers were pushing men like him into Darwinian orthodoxy because creationists used their modified neo-Darwinian ideas against Darwin.

I have quoted his Neo-Darwinian position myself, regarding punctuated equilibrium, where he claims rapid evolution, say, after mass extinctions. I think the claimed P.E. concept is referring to, what I would call.....latent genetic mechanisms that are switched on in a surviving specie so that they can fill vacant niche's formerly filled by the extinct species.

Regarding banding: When I read the ring number on a Black-headed Gull in north Cumbria the other day with my telescope, it was data. By checking on the net I found the ring was from the Museum Zoolog in Helsinki. I was then informed the bird was actually ringed in Helsinki as an adult two years ago. That is a fact in my book, but it is also data. How it got to England for the winter is unknown It certainly didn't quantum tunnel its way here or come on an airplane! :) It used its wings no doubt, but how it navigated and what route it took, is guess work. It is illuminated in that and other species by ringing data from the routes they take but nowadays birds can be tracked by satellite tags as the fly, feed and rest.

One goose tag was tracked to the dead goose (whole bird) in an Inuit freezer in a settlement dwelling! It was also a fact that it had been shot by the Inuit hunter.;)

Regarding evolution by Natural Selection; it is a theory propounded by Darwin of a suggested mechanism for the origin of species. It is not Evolution in itself. In Darwin's day speciation was then inferred by comparative anatomy which even more so today is inferred from commonality of genetic make up in similar species.

Creation is a matter of faith, and we of faith, frankly, have no idea how God populated this planet with life. It matters little whether or not God did it quick or slow, or used evolution of some form, we believe, not because of data, but because of faith...a gift from God.

blessings
Derek

Hi, Everyone! :hibye: Lest anybody think that I forgot about this little mini-project ... I did not. But, I have been re-thinking it. Hopefully, influenced by holy spirit, I have decided it would be counter-productive to pursue this topic. It won't add one whit to anyone's spirituality. (And, isn't that our goal?) Furthermore, I can see where it could lead to needless, pointless controversy; stirring up emotions in those of our dear brothers and sisters who may presently hold a wide variety of world-views and opinions concerning the origin and nature of our earth and the universe. And, therefore, it's just not worth it.

May we spend our time and energy in other pursuits more conducive to nurturing our personal relationship with our Creator ... and assisting one another, especially bearing the burdens of those heavily weighed down by this system. :grouphug:

isomam

Hi brother Isomam,
If there are sound scientific 'facts' that can illumine our knowledge of the created order it seems a pity if you cannot bring them to the fore. There may be many reading this forum who have questions, who may feel as a result of Christian non engagement by those having a less than literal perspective, that there is only a course away from theistic creation open to them.

Practically any subject discussed can be both controversial and up building.

If we were to be influenced by emotional control from others, would we not impoverish our education and those we seek to help?

Peace and blessing to you.
Derek
my comments are in blue.

Derek Wrote:

Hi brother Isomam,

hi, brother derek :)

If there are sound scientific 'facts' that can illumine our knowledge of the created order it seems a pity if you cannot bring them to the fore.

it isn't that i cannot bring them to the fore, ... it is that i choose not to do so.

There may be many reading this forum who have questions, who may feel as a result of Christian non engagement by those having a less than literal perspective, that there is only a course away from theistic creation open to them.

i'm not sure that i agree with the logic behind your argument here.

Practically any subject discussed can be both controversial and up building.

granted. i'll stipulate to that. ;)

If we were to be influenced by emotional control from others, would we not impoverish our education and those we seek to help?

again, i cannot agree with the logic of your assertion here. you imply that i am allowing others to 'emotionally control' me. i assure you, such is not the case at all.

trust me. i weighed all of your arguments during my days of 'pondering' the advisability of continuing with this little mini-project. for me, personally, i found that -- after carefully wieghing them in the balance scale, i found them to be 'wanting' (deficient).

it is my earnest belief that the time will come (soon, hopefully) when we will all be invited to walk on the 'highway of holiness' and listen carefully to our 'grand instructor' as he teaches us correct words of wisdom and truth concerning all things. ... including physics, cosmology and all of the sciences which are the proud handiwork of our creator.


Peace and blessing to you.
Derek

and to you, too, derek.

My feelings exactly Derek! If we bend to what is "politically" correct all the time, we will have very little options. I have yet to find any 'science" that I can believe in, that doesn't also bolster my spirituality.

e-magine Wrote:
My feelings exactly Derek! If we bend to what is "politically" correct all the time, we will have very little options. I have yet to find any 'science" that I can believe in, that doesn't also bolster my spirituality.


hi, e-magine, my brother. :) actually, i meant to state this in my previous post to derek. since i forgot to do it then, i'll do it now.

just because i have elected to 'opt out' as far as discussing these things further, at this time, doesn't require you or derek or anyone else to do so. please use this thread to 'air things out,' all you like. just please grant me the freedom not to participate.

fair 'nuff? ... iso...

Hi brother Isomam,
Fair comment if my choice of words were several shades stronger than they should have been. But it pretty much amounts to the same result. You brought a thread to birth and then failed to develop your thoughts in the light of what others have said or might say.

It don't bother me 'a brace of dingos kidneys' if someone disagrees with me about my thoughts on the natural world. If they have valid questions to ask or points to make that make me believe I may be incorrect I am willing to change my view.

shalom
Derek
Hi Isomam

I do agree with your definition of "pseudoscience", but with the caveat that this phrase is also used quite often on this board as a derogatory term, in a way that does not fit your definition.

Orthodox = Science, Unorthodox = Pseudoscience

... is the shortcut a lot of people seem quite happy to use here.

For instance, I often hear something equivalent to, "Young earth creationism is pseudoscience."

Well, this is a bit vague. There are a lot of young earthers who are doing actual Science.

For instance, I've just received in the post the 8th edition of a wonderful book called "In The Beginning", by Walt Brown.

His "hydroplate theory" is possibly the best explanation for the mechanism of the Flood, and its consequences to the planet.

In my opinion, this is a book that every Christian with an
interest in geology should read.

The book challenges a lot of "orthodox" geology, such as Plate Techtonics, and most of it is testable and repeatable - although perhaps not on a global scale, just as it is not possible to repeat the Creation of the Universe.

Another thing: many Young Earth Creationists (in fact, any brand of Creationists) find it hard to get papers peer-reviewed, not because what they do is not science, but because their peers are not creationists!

(This has been the experience of many scientists, even before they became fully fledged creationists, if their papers even hint at any intelligence or purposeful design in the universe.)

Peer review is a useful process, but it is not always objective.

So it can be a vicious circle for the Creationist.

Now, here's a question for you... should Intelligent Design be taught in schools?

I know many have a knee-jerk reaction to that question, but consider this...

Evolution is, in my opinion, a valid hypothesis for the origin of life, so it should be taught in schools. (I just don't believe it is how it happened, that's all.)

But then, so is Intelligent Design a valid hypothesis for the origin of life.

After all, the opposite of apparent design (which is what evolutionists argue explains design in nature) is actual design.

The argument that, if they taught Inteliigent Design in schools, they would have to teach the Spaghetti Flying Monster argument is a red herring.

If the Spaghetti Flying Monster created the Universe, then by definition, that would come under Intelligent Design.

So you would only need to teach "apparent design" versus "actual design".

So I suggest Intelligent Design should be taught in schools, because it is a valid hypothesis of the origin of life.

Specifically, how we can tell whether something has been designed, versus come about by chance, i.e. a facelike shape in a mountain, versus the faces on Mount Rushmore.

Of course, if they started to do that, every child would "get it", and atheism would be out of the window...

... which is the real reason they don't want Intelligent Design in the schools.

But ID is as valid a hypothesis as evolution for the origin of life.
Hi guys,

I am glad that the topic can continue if people want it to. I thought for a moment that the thread was to be closed down. I would have been baffled by that, considering we have a Controversy Room.

So what was the original contention – that good science and evolution were mutually exclusive? And that good science will tend to support a version of creationism, but psuedo-science will tend to support the theory of evolution?

I’ve just read Interpretum’s post. Orthodox science is classed as good science, and unorthodox science is classed as bad science, whether it is good science or not.

So the plot thickens. Unorthodox science may well not tend in the direction of evolution at all. I guess this is how the YEC lobby feel, caught between orthodox science and the OEC lobby. Stephen Jay Gould feels feel caught between creationists and traditional evolutionists – between faith and (more) orthodox science? Who do the OEC lobby feel caught between - probably orthodox science and the unorthodox science of the YEC lobby.

I’m beginning to realise that an agreed interpretation of basic words is a must to talk about complex stuff like this. I read Mr. Gould’s article and discovered that a fact is not a fact as we know it, but a temporary theory. And the article below Gould’s states that the meaning of theory has been demoted to mean hypothesis today.

This should make for an interesting discussion. We might stick to the original contention, if I understand it correctly, and see if good science always does tend to support creationism, whether that of the YEC or OEC persuasion. It would be great if we could find out something about Stephen Jay Gould, who seems to have reconciled faith and evolution in his book ‘Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life’.

Regards,
Brendan.
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