Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Greetings All,

This has been on my mind for a while.

I don't mind a good debate, and will throw down when needed.

But, I do sense that some have come to the Paradise Cafe with the agenda of converting us.

I know others have sensed it as well.


That being said...



As Witnesses; active or former, we have jumped out of a box (the Watchtower Religion) where it's spiritual guides attempted to force us all into the same mold.

And now...

It seems new spiritual guides have come along, working as they believe in the name of God, to herd us into a new box (their sincere version of "true Christianity"), to be forced into a new mold.



Every discussion seems like it becomes a debate of the doctrines of Christendom, that we rejected as Witnesses.

Again, with our conversion as the goal.



Some of us are still Witnesses, some are no longer; and while we recognize that WT doctrine was not always correct, it was not always wrong.



I hold to a core of beliefs that rejects many of the teachings of Christendom.

I had most of those beliefs before I became a Witness.

I no longer associate with the WT Religion, yet hold true to my core beliefs.



Before our :assimilation: assimilation into mainstream Christendom is complete, I would like to ask those who have come here with that purpose this question...


How will embracing Your doctrines make our Christian worship better???



Sub questions...

How will embracing the belief that Jehovah, Jesus, and the holy spirit are a trinity enhance my worship???


How will embracing the belief of the immortality of the soul enhance my worship???

Especially, with regard to Jesus and the Ransom???


How will embracing the belief that the Master and the evildoer executed alongside Him were in paradise the same day, enhance my worship???


And, the big ones in my mind...

Is not the Christ, enough???


Whatever differences we have in belief and doctrine; will they not be cleared up when we stand before the One, face to face???



A questioning "two lepta", 'cause I really, really want to know why.

Love to All,
John

Another question...

Or, do you believe that if we don't adopt beliefs that you espouse, we are destined to go to hell???

Hi John,
You made a good point. :thumbup: I agree with you, there is no use to go back to old and wrong Bibleunderstanding. It much better to stick to what is right and then add to it more understanding, until we get a full understanding of the whole truth.

Your brother Jan

Greetings 1 Of Mini, and all of my dear brothers and sisters, may you all continue in the grace of our God Jehovah and the love and peace of His son our King and Savior Jesus the Christ:

1 Of Mini, you said,

I thank you my dear 1 Of Mini, as I agree fully with your sentiments, and that is why I work at not engaging in these types of discussions. I much prefer the counsel our brother the Apostle Paul left us in Hebrews 10:24 "And let’s keep reminding ourselves to help each other to grow in love and good deeds."

In Christ's love and peace, brother Fred

Greetings Jan,

I my heart and mind, we are all siblings, as we are brothers of the Christ.

So we have different understandings of doctrines that we hold so dear.

Yet, we are imperfect humans, and even though we are brothers of the Master, all things have not been revealed to us in their entirety.

Since that is the case, why must we feel the compulsion to have others believe exactly as us???

I no longer feel that way, and it's probably a knee-jerk reaction to what I perceive, as someone trying to impose their beliefs upon me.

To me and others, it has reached a saturation point.


Sometimes, I feel this compulsion we have to force others into our little box, is a design of Satan.


Jesus looks at the quality of our faith, not the quantity of our doctrine.

So, someone does not believe exactly the way we do???

Is not the Christ enough???

If that person has Christ, do we lack faith that Christ can bring us all into alignment, in the time of Jehovah's choosing???

Perhaps, we are the one that will require more alignment.


"Two lepta", in search of alignment.

Love to All,
John

Dear John,

There is value and wisdom in your questions.

I find it difficult when someone uses scriptures in the way that they were TAUGHT BY MEN to try to beat a DOCTORINE into our minds.

This is frustrating because we have chosen to FREE our minds and allow HOLY SPIRIT to make us over by the mercy of Jehovah and Jesus.

I believe that JW's have alot of heart felt, holy spirit inspired intentions. I also believe the same of Baptist, Catholics, or probably all Christian people. With or without a religion (Religion=following men) our hearts either give love and praise to our Father or not.

Doctorines are shackles that hold us in small prison cells. Freeing ourselves to allow LOVE and GOOD WORKS to become our direction is truly FOLLOWING THE CHRIST. No religious leader or book written by a religious sect is going to keep us from Christ if we practice these things.

WE ARE ALREADY BELIEVERS!!!! NO PERSON CAN JUDGE AND SAY THIS KNOWLEDGE OR THAT KNOWLEDGE IS PREVENTING US FROM THE PROMISED KINGDOM. (UNLESS ITS KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ARE GETTING FROM THE DARKNESS AND SHARING IT---BAD KNOWLEDGE!)

Satan wants people to think that MAN JUDGES can keep people in or out. MAN JUDGES CAN'T DECIDE YOUR SPIRITUAL FUTURE!

But, the bible does say to help each other from falling into a pit. The bible does say that certain practices will prevent us from the kingdom.

John, I DO believe that the doctorines are a PIT. Recognizing it is hard. Satans worked centuries ahead of us. But, eventually with searching and groping we grow and mature.

FREE the mind in CHRIST!

Still Growing, Still Maturing, Still a Baby, Debbie

Hello brother:hibye:

Ditto. I suppose with any Christian board it was bound to happen - religion has linked life and death with doctrine! One day we'll all be taught the truth about whatever is relevant ( I wonder how much of our debates will be earnest interests will be deemed of no serious relevance? ) including prophecy. How much energy will we have used by then in debate, instead of encouragement - offering a cup of cold water to a lover of God? It would be nice if we could all be delighted at each other's sincere love of God despite our differences, but that doesn't make for a lively discussion board. Perhaps as a race we're just not mature enough yet to appreciate it, perhaps as a race we only feel alive when we're contending with each other, or maybe feel that worship is boring unless we're "fighting the fight".

We could keep it before our Father - yearning for His kind eye on those who love Him, whatever "funny beliefs" they have (let's admit it - we've all had some funny beliefs in the past, haven't we?!). Perhaps it'll help us personally too, make pointless debate an endangered species, and the further we travel down the road to life, the less the Babel of doctrines will be as we enjoy "listening" to the holy spirit and following the fine shepherd. Worship should be peaceful after all - the world is bad enough without us immitating it.

Nice thread John, may God continue to bless you and yours,


Acts5v29

I agree that bad knowledge is harmful. Even truths if they come from Satan or demons are then useless. Think about king Saul, who wanted to know how the war with the Philistines would end. 1Samuel 28:7 (NWT): Finally Saul said to his servants: “Seek for me a woman who is a mistress of spirit mediumship, and I will go to her and consult her.”
The answere he got: And “Samuel” went on to say: “Why, then, do you inquire of me, when Jehovah himself has departed from you and proves to be your adversary? 17 And Jehovah will do for himself just as he spoke by means of me, and Jehovah will rip the kingdom away from your hand and give it to your fellowman David. 18 As you did not obey the voice of Jehovah, and you did not execute his burning anger against Am´a·lek, that is why this is the thing that Jehovah will certainly do to you this day. 19 And Jehovah will also give Israel with you into the hand of the Phi·lis´tines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Even the camp of Israel Jehovah will give into the hand of the Phi·lis´tines.” 1 Samuel 28:16-19 (NWT)

Saul got no benefit from getting this knowledge from evil spirits. So too Jesus did not allow evil spirits to proclaim that he was God's Son.

Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.” But, rebuking them, he would not permit them to speak, because they knew him to be the Christ. -Luke 4:41 (NWT)


So, do not believe religious lies and false teachings. Do not listen to demons and Satan even if it would be right what they say.

Brotherly love
Jan

Hey 1 OF MINI!! :clap:


Hows it going matey? :thumbsup:



Personally, I think that JW's and ex-JW's just need to "harden up". JW's and ex-JW's tend to have some ingrained belief that what they believe is all there is to believe, when the opposite is true. Topics can be argued till everyone is black and blue, yet what remains is what we want to be true. We may even feel we have God's backing and help in interpreting scripture. Yet so does the other person who has different or opposing views. So whats up with that? One word. Perception.

Perception can be a friend or a foe -- and Christianity no exception. All people Generalise, Delete and Distort information that comes into their awareness. The fact that our nervous system is being bombarded with up to 4 billion bits of information per second, and we can only grasp 2000 of those bits, then we are leaving out a large majority of "what is reality", especially considering our subconscious beliefs dictate what can be known, what we can see and what we believe is possible.


I dont sense "conversion", but I do sense people discussing with each other who have different views on differents topics in the scriptures. I also see different personality types and different value systems at work, which can be mistaken for "conversion".

For one thing, while this may be an assembly of believers, it is still a discussion board, meaning there is relative freedom to discuss what we want, and have our thoughts added to, welcomed, ripped apart or simply be told "bugger off!" (that is an Australian colloquialism).

For example, some can discuss the merits of the Watchtower, and some like to dismantle the merits of the Watchtower. Personally, I LOVE dismantling the Watchtower. I have no fond memories or experiences, so I dont really care too much. However, others do.


We could also not post our thoughts on subjects that "irk" us.

Like the Trinity. I find the discussion on the Trinity, for and against, to be some of the most boring, alzeimhers inducing exchange, EVER!, and often resort to posting smart-"arse" remarks because I have nothing else better to say. So its better for me to not post.

We could also keep in mind that we dont all agree on everything, and while we may find it redundant to discuss things which we have already been through, there are others who havent (like mysef, for example). If it really gets up our nose that someone may have "obvious" differences on theological topics, it would be best to remember whose nose is being affected.

Ah! What am I talking about! I LOVE seeing people get worked up! The human mind is so funny in its reactions towards external stimuli and its unconscious response towards it. Then internal representations are made, then choices are made, then we have this thing called Life.


Cheers mate! :drinking:

Well I remember this math teacher, Mr. Wong who explained to the class how two negatives can be made positive when multiplied together. Then one of his English honor role students whose name also happened to be Wong put up his hand and said that when two negatives are spoken together, they are also made positive, such as "He doesn't know nothing" really means he knows something!

Then Sally, the only Caucasian in the all Asian class said, "Well it might work for you guys but where I come from two Wongs could never make you white!"

In fact I think that jumping from one wrong to another only makes you twice as wrong. No? :dontknow:

sw

Greetings digital_punk,

As always, I value your input.

But, I get the feeling you missed the point.


I agree about this being a discussion board; this thread is not an attempt at censure.

I want people to have the freedom to say what they believe.

Heaven knows we had more than our share of big brother watching over us while in the WT box.

And, you know me; I'll jump into any subject, just about.


But, I will disagree with you on the point of conversion.

I don't mind a debate.

Lately though, it seems like a shelling!

Perception, without a doubt; I sense it, and I'm not the only one.


The purpose of this thread was not to create a whine fest, so the we could complain about the way some of us think others are attempting to convert us.

My thoughts on the perceived conversion was just the preface.


Let the fundmentalists come, and try to convince us of the rightness of the trinity, or the immortality of the soul, or the whatever...

I've got plenty of ammo left; and I know there are some shooters here, that outclass me for miles.



The point of this thread is this...

You want me to believe in something; great.

I understand your doctrines.

Really, I hear them over, and over, and over.


Now go farther...

Show me the reason.

Show me the benefit.

Show me how believing your doctrines are going to make me a better Christian, and enhance my worship to Jehovah!!!


"two small coins"

Love to All,
John

See digital_punk,

As I just said, "I know there are some shooters here, that outclass me for miles."

One of them just entered the corral.

I think, I might be bleeding...:shoot:

:D

Hey "Dad!!" :thumbsup:


Hows it, Mr Cool? :thumbsup:

I think you meant to say -- jumping from one wong to another only makes you twice as wong.

Or maybe it just means you are single and are dating in a neighbourhood of wongs.

Or you can look at it as a learning experience.

Either way, its all in one's Perception. :P;):friends:

Hey 1 OF MINI!! :clap:


Thanks for the reply! :thumbsup:

Likewise John, I value your input too.

Ah! Perception, I love it! :thumbsup:

Of course I missed the point -- that IS the point! :thumbsup:

Agreed!

I will say that I did Generalise and Delete when I read your post. Dang it! :hug:

Well, I havent really been keeping up with all the threads lately. Although, I can sympathise with the concern that you and others share.

I think I know who is being referred to and they do seem to share the same overall beliefs.

I just dont perceive it to be conversion, thats all. However, it could be!

Here, here! I agree with you!

Fundies are anything BUT fun. Migrane inducing is more like it. :thumbsup:

Ah!

This is the "meat and potatoes", the crux of the matter.

If what I have, that constitutes my faith and I have done the rounds and studied for myself, and someone comes along and intrudes with other perspectives, its not so much that I wouldnt take on the other perspectives, its that they offer nothing more than what I already have, which is a relationship with Jesus and Jehovah. So if something theological cannot improve on what I already have, then what is the sense in taking on other perspectives?

If I am interpreting you correctly, I agree with you.

It is how we walk, not what we know. It is how we express ourselves, not what we can recite. It is what is relevant to "Now", not what was relevant to those who no longer live.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. It is our personal relationship with Him that needs attention - not theological sparring that potentially amounts to conjecture.

You might want to get an independant evaluation on those two small coins of yours, John. Seems they are WAY undervalued! ;):thumbup::ok:


Cheers mate! :thumbsup:

Forgive the racist implication but you'll have to know this much: I am very much attached to the Wong people.:whistle:
sw