Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Folks

Reading through the "Can a Christian be an evolutionist" thread, surely some of the members of this forum must experience a certain amount of cognitive dissonance (i.e. a conflict in their own mind) when discussing the Creation.

For example...

I think it's reasonable to say that evolution (that all life on earth has basically a common ancestor) is taught in the classroom, pretty much as fact.

It is also treated by most of the scientific community as a "scientific fact".

Yet, many on this board do not believe in evolution (at least, macroevolution, the common ancestor stuff), and therefore they find themselves in disagreement with much of the scientific community.

After all, we're constantly being told in the media of dinosaurs that are 90 million years old, and that so and so a fossil is XYZ million years old.

The non-evolutionists here probably find it quite easy to dismiss the media and scientific community on these issues.

And yet, when the possibility that God created the Universe in SIX DAYS is raised, on this forum it's almost like saying Jesus was never resurrected!

The same people who dismiss the possibility of God creating in six literal days do so because of what "the scientific community" tell them...

... which is the same community who are teaching your kids that man evolved, or that dinosaurs are 90 million years old!

How on earth do you folks not experience any cognitive dissonance over that?

Personally, I don't any more, because I don't believe in evolution, and I take the six days literally.

So I take what the scientific community tell me about the origins of life, and the age of life (including the age of the earth and the universe), with a large pinch of salt.

Of course, I realize that one of the dangers of doing that is I could easily be accused of (a) being unscientific, or (b) anti-science or © trusting in pseudo-science, or any of the other stuff that's usually thrown against young earth creationists.

Sure, believing in six literal days is unscientific (as far as modern science defines this). I also believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead, and that's also unscientific. (For instance, it can't be repeated).

So I don't have a problem believing in things that are not scientific.

And if you believe Jesus Christ was resurrected, you don't either. Supernatural events are, by definition, not natural.

The Creation of the Universe comes under the definition of a supernatural event, so God could have created it instantly if He chose.

So what's your problem with six literal days?

It's impossible to do scientifically, but not impossible with God.

Imagine you just witnessed a train wreck. You see the carriages crumpled up on a section of track.

Along comes a scientist and tells you that, because steel buckles at the rate of 1 inch every 120,000 years, the train must have taken 1.2 billion years to get into its present state.

What would you think? You'd probably think the scientist was joking!

Yet scientists do precisely that with the Universe and life: with light, radioactive decay, geology.

They say, because mountains erode at x millimetres a year, this mountain must have taken 1.4 billion years to form (to use a made-up example.)

Or because Uranium has a half life of so-and-so, this sample must be X billions of years old.

Or because light travels at C, and because so-and-so galaxy is 3.4 billion light years away, it must be 3.4 billion years old.

These things may be true, but only under ordinary circumstances.

If God chooses to smash the mountain to the ground, what's the speed of erosion then?

If God chooses to Flood a world, what's the speed or erosion then?

If God chooses to stretch out the Universe, what's the speed of light then?

The creation of the universe was not ordinary. It was supernatural.

Hi ITPT!
I don't have any cognitive dissonance about it, because I don't believe that there really is any "supernatural" events. Everything that YHWH has done is within his own natural laws. We don't perfectly understand those laws yet, so to us, some miracles seem para-normal. I think mankind will come to understand how miracles occurred someday.
You are right about the 6 days, but time is not revelavent. 6 days doesn't really mean anything. :P

We'll I find it funny that God has timetables and sets days and times for us.

IF the creative process was not written for our benifit It would not be in the bible in my opion.

God thru inspriation seems to give details on some things and yet not others. WHY?

We learn thru language as far as I have seen. IF we couldn't read or write we would have a difficult time getting out of the "stone age"

it would be handed down thru visual training only. and what if the one who learned the most dies? the knowledge dies.

God Wrote things so that we could be on a faster learning curve in my opionion do to the vexations of life itself.
so IF it says SIX Days it has some lesson to teach us.
Digging is the only way to uncover the treasure.

Does anyone believe that the SUN stood still when moses arms were raised? I DO. is that scientific? is that within God's supposed physical laws?
Their are more questions to me then answers.

OK, so how many hours long were the creative days?
How do we measure time?

My comments are in green.

Thanks for trying to give me abit of education .

I Find it hard to grasp as I really have little formal education.
I will attempt to find some info on the web on the lateral demension.


I am kinda ok with waiting for the real creation class! then I won't have to figure out which is true and which is false. and i will have more time then

ok, then, frank. although i want to caution you not to be too disappointed if you find little-to-no information about it on the www.

briefly, it is an extended postulate of string theory. my personal belief, which i have held for 15 -- 20 years now, is that there are twelve "space-time" dimensions. nine of space (three of which we experience in our everyday lives); and three of time (only one of which we experience in our everyday lives). if i try to go further, it gets pretty murky pretty fast. we can all just wait for that classroom to open soon; the one called "Millennium Physics 101." ;)

much christian love from your friend and brother, ... iso...

Hey E-

Don't know who you directed the "time ? " to.

But I for one am at odds with the way time is measured in our day.
IT feels very inconsistant. and if God calendar for the hebrews "jews" don't really know who's or what is what. But I presume it should be whatever calendar and days the prophets used. as thye were counting based on God's inspiration.

I am guessing that a 24 hour day is still the same as it was then.
I am not sure thou. as I kinda feel that we have been growing apart from our creator that we might actually be getting physically more distant from the source. "it's pure specualation"
I am fairly sure that if all things are the exact same distance from each other as during creation then we would be ok with the prophets time table..
If for some reason the universe has expanded or contracted and the distances between planets and the sun haveing an impact on the Cycle of what we consider a day may be off.
hope that made some sense.

I feel that since he designed things with a canopy, that he may have had to make some tweaks to the way things work for us to survive.
we actually may be closer as the canopy could have maybe kept it warmer like a green house. I know it is not the norm for thinking.

Hi Interpretum,
As an human, with God given faculties of reason, I have come to the conclusion that God is not a, "trickster creator deity", who laid all sorts of false trails for man, so that man would become trapped into falsely concluding our world wasn't made in six day days or existing at a fixed position in space.

Regarding your post, it has a number of sweeping conclusions, that are more about an anti-science agenda, than with regard to a genuine quest into knowing about our planet and the wonders of Creation.

I will try to refrain in future from responding to such silly exchanges.

Derek

That's a good way of putting it.:thumbup:

I agree, Interpretum, that the reasoning might give rise to cognitive dissonance, taken far enough, but I think too that there comes a time when we start to say to ourselves:

"What has this really got to do with my love of God?"

- and that's what's in our hearts really. Analogous, ever so slightly, to the Pharisees insisting on baptisms for dishes and sprinkling of water up to the elbows, when all anyone wanted to do was eat.

A pity that reasoning has taken that route, because some of it could be very encouraging.

Acts5v29

Hi Interpretum!

I guess it would be no surprise to anyone if I said that I agree totally with your thoughts on this one...

Isomam asks, what does this have to do with our love for God? Well, of course everyone is different, but for the most part love is a reciprocal thing, give and take. It goes both ways. It becomes increasing difficult to unconditionally love someone who shows little or no love in return. At some point, we burn out of love if it is not rekindled in our hearts. It's just our human nature. Maybe it's a flaw that comes with imperfection, I don't know. I think that's why God created us male and female, not only to reproduce, but to form a bond of love, and so we become "one flesh" with out partner. God wants us, in a similar way, to become one in spirit with Him, and His Son Yeshua. We love God for who He is, what He stands for, for giving us life, and this earthly home, and all the good things in it that makes life so enjoyable.

Satan spends all his time trying to erode these things. He loves to plant doubts in our minds about everything. If he plants an idea that the earth was sitting around for 4.5 Billion years before God finally decided to fulfill His purpose for creating it in the first place, for man (created in the image of God) to dwell upon the earth, and subdue it, well, it's really not so much of a big deal at the moment, maybe, for some people, because we are not yet under test. I think that what Satan really cares the most about is testing us, because he's a wretched, miserable abusive creature who gets off on death and destruction, and ultimately winning souls. Yeshua spent a lot of time and effort driving the point home that we are going to be tested for endurance, and he that endures to the end is the one that will be saved. And so that is what I base my thinking on, what will be going on in our heads when we have been beaten down, abused, isolated, for months, maybe years, waiting, waiting, waiting for our Lord and Master to end all this suffering. I always have in my mind how Yeshua Himself ran out of gas right before giving up His spirit on the cross, feeling abandoned and so alone. And this is the Son of God! Well, when I am in a similar position, the last thing I want rolling around in my head is that God was twiddling His thumbs for 180 million years waiting to create a new and improved paramecium. I mean, who can even bear such nonsense?

So, to me, knowing that God created everything for the purpose of the earth, that the earth is the reason for all of this existence, and it was all put in place in six days, 6,000 years ago, which is exactly what a child would understand if he read the first couple of chapters in Genesis, it would mean an awful lot, I think, if that were firmly planted in my mind come the hour of test, with no one able to erode that faith with fairy tales. If we just simply believe the account of creation for what it says, as you say Interpretum, a supernatural event, we do not need "science" to interpret a single thing for us. We don't need to make anything "fit", we just simply take God at His word. This magnifies God's love in my mind immensely, and in my humble opinion, these simple truths, that Kabbalists and others have tried for so long and so hard to interpret differently, to make black mean white and white mean black, to cast doubts about our origins, is at the crux of the Serpent's very first lie.

The beautiful part of it, is that once we understand that creation was a supernatural event, all we need to explain to ourselves and understand in our minds is what happened since then. It is completely to Satan's advantage for us to believe that anything, anything at all, significant happened before the book of Genesis. If the universe was not here 6,034 years ago, in my mind it wipes out every lie that Satan ever made up.

:heartbeat::heartbeat::heartbeat:
Jesh

HI Jesh,

I hope you will re consider your statement
"Well, love is a reciprocal thing, give and take. It goes both ways. It becomes increasing difficult to love someone who shows little or no love in return. At some point, we burn out of love if it is not rekindled in our hearts."

Reall Love is not reciprocal at all. Just ask God
" HE loved the world so much he gave his only begotten SON"

Hi TD,

You are right about real love, something God is the Master of. But in our imperfect human nature, not all of us can live up to those standards. And then what type of love are we talking about? Relationship love, or love of our fellow man? And our love for God is a relationship too, and we can love God more if we understand how much He loves US. I don't think that love that He has ever varies, but our love is always being tested. That was the point I was trying to make. And even God's love, in the end, is conditional, because He will eventually have to cut off from everlasting life all those who do not love Him. Isn't that true?

:heartbeat::heartbeat:
Jesh

God's Love IS not conditional at all to me,

Jesus was the reflection of the Father Yes? I know you believe the same.

so here it what he say's
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[b] and pray for those who persecute you,

NO conditions their either. Just keep loving, when they hate you keep loving, when they Love you be happy they Love you.

God removing those without Love is not in his heart it is a must for the rest who cannot co exist with those whom chose to not LOVE.
for example "Satan" is it more loving to allow him to Live with us and ruin our lives? or For God to seperate HIm from us eternally?

Death May not be as we believe maybe it is the state we are in when we are seperated from God and do not have that real relationship with him.
Remember we are not to worry about our flesh, "fear not those whom can kill the body"
"IN the day of Adams eating he was seperated from GOD"
When we are left on our Own God doesn't have to do a thing to punish us, we are in a hell of our own, we as humans seem to blame him for our our misdeeds. Paradise is and can only be when we are fully conected Back with our Father, It has nothing to do with where we live. you know the saying "Home is where the Heart is" well so is paradise

It seems to me to be all about the prodigals son, did he get himself into trouble when he was not home? well he must have he lost evrything.

The Father did not change his love but left his son to do as his own will chose. perspective could dictate that this was a condition love also. as his father may not have been following him around to keep him from harm