Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

This came up in another thread and I wondered what the opinion is of this " Is it ok to pray to Jesus? and If Yes why? If No Why? "

I don't know of any scriptures that tell of anyone praying to Jesus. It seems to me that everyone always prayed to the Father. If praying to Jesus were the norm, it would be clear in scripture, I would think.:read:

Good point. Jesus himself said we must pray to our heavenly Father. Also all the prayers by Christians mentioned in the New Testament were to the Father. Jesus himself prayed to the Father. Jesus never told anyone to pray to him. We must pray to our heavenly Father Jehovah God in the name of Jesus who intercedes on behalf of us.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

This is a good topic, in a different way.

We all pray to our Father (speaking of ex-JWs and non-trinitarians here) and we talk regularly to Jesus Christ, just as Stephen did. So...

...imagine on Jesus' return (for those who will still be around by then) Then, every eye will see him, coming on the clouds in great glory. Will we feel free to talk so casually to him then, when we've seen him as the King of Kings over the whole earth? It changes our perception, doesn't it. He'll be a "Mighty God" preparing the earth as a gift for his Father and ours, just as the adversary is described as a "god of this system of things" - so how will we approach him then? Right now we feel secluded, safe and confident when we talk with him - a very private thing - but how will that change when he is no longer "somewhere out there" but around for everyone to see, and everyone is talking to this visible Divine one? Will we feel jealous, even, that so many others are approaching him whom we speak to now in private?

Perhaps it doesn't matter, we'll find out at the time - just a thought though.

Acts5v29

The model prayer is to our Heavenly Father. Jesus also stated that noone could go to him unless the Father sent him.

Here's some good scriptures for you:

John 6:44

44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 14:26 (NIV)

26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.


28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.


With Christian Love, Debbie

What about John 14:14?

"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it."

Is not John 14:14 repetition of the main point; namely glorifying our Father by directing requests to Him through and by means of our Mediator, Jesus!

John 14:13..

"I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."


Christian love to seekers of/for truth,

gogh

With a little twist, the ASK ME part.

Hi Yannis

RE: "...the ASK ME part."

ASK what, Yannis? Is this arrangement (praying to our Father by means of Jesus Christ our Mediator) not designed to honor and praise our Father and ask for His will to be accomplished...(by means of/through the Appointed/Anointed One, Jesus?)
Addressing our Father in Jesus name is, imo, honoring the Son and our Father. To ignore our Father by asking requests of Jesus alone (not qualifying that our request is according to the Father will)...would not be honoring YHVH...(an individual sentiment...grin). Is the stipulation not very clear, that requests/prayers be according to our Fathers will and in Jesus name?

It makes perfect sense to address our Father in Jesus name,,,(as per instruction). (What point would there be in addressing Jesus in his own name?)

John 5:19...

"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For what he does, the Son does likewise.
For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing. And he will show him even greater works than these, so that you may be amazed.
Just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to those he chooses.
For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
so that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

1Timothy 2:1...

"First of all, then, I urge you to offer petitions, prayers, intercessions, and expressions of thanks for all people,
for kings, and for everyone who has authority, so that we might lead a quiet and peaceful life with all godliness and dignity.
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth.

There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings-a human, Christ Jesus.

He gave himself as a ransom for all, a fact that was acknowledged at the right time."


Christian love,

gogh

There is a phrase that goes from the Old Testament through to the New and it has One meaning.

Here are the verses see if you see what the meaning of the phrase and how it is used in the New Testament.

1 Kings 18

24"Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD, and the God who answers by fire, He is God." And all the people said, " That is a good idea."

25So Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one ox for yourselves and prepare it first for you are many, and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it."

26Then they took the ox which was given them and they prepared it and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon saying, "O Baal, answer us." But there was no voice and no one answered. And they leaped about the altar which they made.

( Baal did not answer their prayer )

27It came about at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, "Call out with a loud voice, for he is a god; either he is occupied or gone aside, or is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and needs to be awakened."

28So they cried with a loud voice and cut themselves according to their custom with swords and lances until the blood gushed out on them.

29When midday was past, they raved until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice; but there was no voice, no one answered, and no one paid attention.

30Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come near to me." So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD which had been torn down.

31Elijah took twelve stones according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Israel shall be your name."

32So with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he made a trench around the altar, large enough to hold two measures of seed.

33 Then he arranged the wood and cut the ox in pieces and laid it on the wood.

34And he said, "Fill four pitchers with water and pour it on the burnt offering and on the wood." And he said, "Do it a second time," and they did it a second time. And he said, "Do it a third time," and they did it a third time.

35The water flowed around the altar and he also filled the trench with water.

Elijah's Prayer
36 At the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, " O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word.
37"Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that You, O LORD, are God, and that You have turned their heart back again."

38Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

39When all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, " The LORD, He is God; the LORD, He is God."


Now in 2 kings 5:11
11 But Naaman became furious, and went away and said, “Indeed, I said to myself, ‘He will surely come out to me, and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leprosy.’

Zeph 3:9
“ For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, That they all may call on the name of the LORD, To serve Him with one accord.

So here we can see that to " Call on the Name "of means to pray to the True God or as in the case of those who worshipped Baal the false God.

Naaman wanted Elisha to simply pray to the LORD and wave his Hand over Naaman's and be healed.

In Zeph 3:9 with a pure language this group of restored ones will pray to the Lord in one accord.

________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________

Now to the Christians in Corinth Pauls says this in 1 Corinth 1:2

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

A greeting that says to you Christians in Corinth with all in Every place ( in other words they are part of a much larger group ) and how do you identify them well at Corinth and Every place it will be those who Pray to the Lord Jesus ( Call on His Name )

It's not just Ok to pray to Jesus ( call on His name ) it is a must for the Believer!!! What kind of personal relationship would it be other wise?

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Don't forget to add verse 3 to the 1 Corinthians scripture. Actually, the whole paragraph is really more appropriate.

The God of the Old Testament is Jehovah, not Jesus. You'll find it in most any OLD bible. I'm sure you know it but it just doesn't fit into your trinity belief that you keep dumping all over the threads. Do you count some kind of preaching time to qualify for something?

Do you know what is exasperating about it? You just don't want to acknowledge that Yehweh is the Father and the beginning. Without Yehweh there would be no Jesus. No Jesus and you wouldn't have your precious trinity. Why did Jesus say to pray to the Father in the model prayer? Why does Jesus say the Father is greater than him? Why does Jesus say noone can come to him unless the Father sends them?

I would think that means we would pray to the Father, you couldn't be part of the bride or part of Jesus's flock without Yehweh (Jehovah) sending you. Personally, I believe on praying to the Father until the marriage feast takes place. I occasionally say things in my prayer to Jesus, too. BUT the Father is the one that chooses the bride. Closing the prayer in Jesus's name closes all things properly IMO. I don't think its proper for the bride to give everything to Jesus until after the marriage, what do you think? Its seems a little improper.

Just some food for thought.

With Christian Love, Debbie

It still says " call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
you can try and avoid it all you want or side track to Verse 3

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

( Unity in the Body of Christ and the saints calling on HIS NAME. )

Here is a quote from the Aid book P885
Jehovah, the first recorded use of this form dates from the 13th century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominion Order, used it in his book Pugeo fidei of the year 1270.

no the God of thr Old Testament simply replied to Moses to tell the people that I AM sent him.

By saying this He was simply stating a fact unlike you and I, I AM Self existing I simply AM.

Summed up in Revelation, Who was and Is and Is to Come.

Of course not " The word had not become flesh YET.

If you asked Moses to take you to Jehovah or Jesus He would have thought you were nuts.

You'll find it in most any OLD bible. I'm sure you know it but it just doesn't fit into your trinity belief that you keep dumping all over the threads.

I count myself a rotten sinner cleansed only by the righteous
blood shed for Me by Jesus, My Lord and My God.

As the old hymn goes, what can wash way my sin nothin' but the blood of Jesus, what can make me whole again nothin' but the blood of Jesus oh precious is the flow that MADE me white as snow no other fount I know nothin' but the blood of Jesus

I Pray to the father most of the time so that is untrue.

The beginning of what?

Not quite without the Father there would be no Son, and without the Son there would be no Father.

To teach His disciples and future followers an example of Prayer to the Father since they asked him. ( nowhere does He teach us to pray to " Jehovah " )


( certianly not to use to as a door to door selling tool for the name Jehovah so one would join " Jehovah's only organization on Earth " )

The president of the United States can truthfully say he is greater than you and I positionally he is. However if he were to say he is better than you or I that would be a lie by nature we are both mere mortals. If in this passage He said the father is "better" than would be a comparison of natures and he would be inferior to the father, however it says "greater" and is a comparison of positions the father was in a much higher postion. Why?

Phil 2
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,

( Who is in a higher position that Angels? GOD)

( we have Humans Angels and God and God lowered himself by taking on flesh and becoming a man ) )

Heb 10:5
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,But a body You have prepared for Me.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

If God in His infinite mercy did not seek us we on our own would not seek Him.

Rom 3:“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

Why for the Believer we are already married!!! It's just the party when we get together for Eternity that is still ahead!!!

Sorry but I'm married now!!! I became part of the bride that day back in 1998.

Here's a question Debbie.

Is Jesus a poligamist?

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:[/quote]

The following quotes are taken from various editions and translations of the Bible published by the Watchtower Society. Take note of the alternative English renderings provided in the footnotes in each of the versions/editions.


New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures (1950)
(Acts 7:59) And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal* and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

* Or, “invocation; prayer”

New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures (1950, second edition revised May 1, 1951)
(Acts 7:59) And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal* and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

* Or, “invocation; prayer”


New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1961, revised 1971)
(Acts 7:59) And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal* and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

* Or, “invocation; prayer.”

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with References (1961, revised 1984)
(Acts 7:59) And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal* and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

*Or, “invocation; prayer.”


The Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition, published by IBSA and WTBTS)
(Acts 7:59) And they stoned Stephen, as he was invoking and saying, “Lord Jesus, * receive my spirit.”

*Dexai may also be rendered sustain or support. Booth, in his Lexicon of Primitive Greek Words, gives this as one of the significations of the word. The prayer of Stephen then would read, “Lord Jesus, sustain my spirit,” or “assist me to suffer.”

Questions from Readers
• Does Stephen’s prayer to Jesus, as found in Acts 7:59, show that he understood Jesus to be Jehovah?—W. R., U.S.A. The prayer offered by Stephen when he was being martyred is recorded at Acts 7:59, 60 ... (The Watchtower; February 1, 1959; p.96; emphasis mine)


The Watchtower has said, “Every prayer is a form of worship.” (The Watchtower; 12/15/1994; p. 23)


Stephen prayed to Jesus. Stephen worshipped Jesus.


The footnotes found in the New World Translation are quite surprising. Stephen "made prayer and said: 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.'" The New World Translation clearly says that Stephen prayed to Jesus. Prayed to Jesus! The very translation produced by an organization that denies the validity of praying to Jesus says that Stephen prayed to Jesus. Wow! The Bible used by Jehovah's Witnesses world-wide clearly shows them that it is perfectly fine to pray to Jesus, which is an act of worship directed towards him.

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

I take your point on this, but at the time there was a particular problem... the Jewish system from which the Christian congregation arose did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. Calling on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord identified - and spread - the Christian congregation. I too, today, call to our Lord Jesus Christ just as Stephen did, but not in prayer. Those I reserve for our Father.

That context does tell us a great deal. Calling to Jesus in those times distinguished those who followed Jehovah's next step on the road to our recovery - the direction of His Messiah - from those who didn't. It showed feeling. It's the same in 1st Corinthians 12, where mention is made of those who say "Jesus is Lord!" - or the opposite. Paul was not telling everyone to repeat that phrase, but that it was a kind of Christian "Shiboleth test", that those who really hated Jehovah's Christian direction would not be able to say it, were not following the guidance of Jehovah's spirit. The words are less important than the context, just as the phrase έγω έιμι (John 8:58) attributed (in translation) to Jesus did not mean he was saying he was the Great I AM, he was just using a standard, common phrase in Greek like anyone else.

But whatever you honestly believe, BethelBoy and the rest of us, you honestly believe. Sincerity is the thing that brings God's blessing.

Christian love,

Acts5v29

Dear Bethel Boy,

"Here's a question Debbie.

Is Jesus a poligamist?"

I have two answers, one as a question- Are you and I poligamists because we are married? And maybe if your a mormon.

I am still searching things when it comes to the bride and you and I probably differ somewhat there, too.

Asking for Jesus's help is still not the same as praying. Jesus specifically said to pray to the Father. Its a pretty clear command.

The best to you, Debbie