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It seems some are indeed :confused: on this subject! But does the Bible describe an it, or a person when it teaches concerning the Holy Spirit?

Well if the Holy Spirit is a person, we would see Him using the personal pronoun when describing Himself. Do we see that?

Acts 13v2 -While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

We see Him described as 'I' and 'Me', could an IT be described as such?

Hi Truthpaste!! :clap:


Hows it going? (nice name, BTW!) :thumbsup:

I would say, concerning the Holy Spirit -- when the Bible describes the Spirit, it is describing God in action.

In my mind, we see God being described through the Spirit, asking for Barnabas and Saul.

The "I" and "Me" is God.

Simple mistranslation -->

Acts 13:2 > "ho-pnuema-ho-haigos" -- literally "The Spirit The Holy"

This is different to this here >

Matthew 28:19 > "ho-haigos-pnuema" -- literally "Of-The Holy Spirit"


Seems different to me. ;)

In my mind, the Holy Spirit is not a person, but is God's active Force -- God in action.


Cheers! :thumbsup:






May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:

Hi TP,
I think those who take the JW's position are as likely to be as wrong as those taking the trinitarian position.

As a former JW I can see, and have done for some time, there is far more going on with the HS than the 'active force' argument.

I do not think there is enough evidence in Scripture to fully understand the nature of the H.S.

There is no evidence in Scripture that the H.S. should be prayed to, or worshiped, as is the case with the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is currently vogue among some Evangelicals to worship the H.S in hymns and prayers...it is not Scriptural.

Nice to see you here.
May Christ's peace be with you
Derek

Hi guys,

This is what I would like to know – what does the holy spirit FEEL like to you? Doctrine aside, do you feel comforted like a friend was doing it? Do you feel taught like a teacher was teaching you? Me, no - but what about you? Does it depend on the person, or is this a time when the real force of the spirit can’t be felt?

Regards,
Brendan.

Maybe what bogs us down in determining whether the Holy Spirit is an “it” or a “he” is our tendency to think of a person in terms of having a physical body. I’ve never once seen this question come up about God, although we know that God is spirit, and whoever worships Him must do so in spirit and in truth. I guess that’s because the personality of God is easily identified throughout the entire Bible.

So I believe the determining factor in whether a being is a person is whether or not the being demonstrates having a personality. Does the Holy Spirit appear to have a personality?

The Holy Spirit can -- be grieved (Eph. 4:30); comfort (Acts 9:31); be a helper (John 14:6); be lied to (Acts 5:3-4); bear witness (John 15:26); become angry (Heb. 10:29); feel hurt (Isa. 63:10); be tested (Acts 5:9); be loved (Rom. 15:30) and as Truthpaste’s post pointed out, the Holy Spirit can speak and call people.

That’s plenty enough to demonstrate a personality in my opinion.

:peace:

Oops...just noticed Brendan's post which came up after I started typing this. Without going into every detail, I can testify that after I had a very personal encounter with Christ while studing the NT, but running cross-references in the OT, it was like a veil was lifted from my eyes, and I began to see things in the Bible I had overlooked before and have a better understanding in my studies. I do feel it was the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Also, since that time, I've had so much more peace, even in the midst of problems and crises.

But once I had an incredible experience that I'll never forget, and I believe it also involved the Holy Spirit. I was actually studying everything the Bible had to say about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and again ran across something I had never seen that settled the issue for me. Later that day, I was in my bed reading my Bible and my son (now 20) came to get on the computer in my room. I shared with him what I had read about and asked him to wait while I looked it up again so I could read it aloud, but I was drawing a blank about the reference beause I had read so much that day. I looked down at my Bible and it was on the very page I was looking for...I saw the chapter and the verses and the reference at the top. I looked up to tell him I was already on the right page and asked him to stop typing a minute to listen. But when I looked back down, I was back at the point where I was reading when he came in...not even in the same chapter! It may seem trivial to some, but it was an incredible experience for me, and I know it was an act of the Holy Spirit confirming that I was on the right track.

The Holy Spirit to me is my helper. This helper has protected me my entire life. If not for this guide, I would have died a number of times. This same Spirit helper has in fact saved my children from death as well. This same Spirit helper has helped many faithful ones throughout history. Who do you think gave Joseph the answers to the meanings of his dreams? Who do you think helped him escape from the dungeon and never deserted him his entire time there, until this same Holy Spirit Wisdom brought him the sceptor of royalty and authority over his oppressors, showing those who defamed him to be false, and gave him eternal glory. I believe Jehovah sends the attendant of his throne to those who are faithful to him, and this attendant is the Holy Spirit and she will whisper truths in the ears of those who will hear and are pure enough to hear it. I believe Wisdom(the Holy Spirit) is a feminine Spirit. I have many reasons to believe this. For the Holy Spirit is a great teacher, and is itelligent, subtle, agile, clear, unstained, certain, lover of good, keen, kindly, firm, secure, tranquil, all-powerful, all- seeing , and the highest spirit besides the Almighty 1st, and Jesus 2nd. For Wsidom is mobile beyond all motion, and she penetrates and prevades all things by reason of her purity. For she is an aura of the might of God, and a pure effusion of the glory of the Almighty, therefore nothing that is stained enters into her. Wisdom, is the splendor of eternal light, the spotless mirror of the power of God, the image of his goodness. She, Wisdom (the Holy Spirit), the woman of Rev, chap 12 has always passed into holy ones from age to age, and she produces friends of God and prophets. For there is nothing more God loves, be it not one who dwells with Wisdom, for she adds to nobility the splendor and companionship with God, for she is the intructress in the undertanding of God, the selector of his works, the attendant of Gods throne. The father will send her to you, and she will help you understand what is pleasing in His eyes, his counsels of old.

I know JW's believe the Holy Spirit is only God's Active Force. Well I believe Wisdom is the helper to help one achieve the active force of God. She is the mother of us, and my helper, in the same way my earthy mom helps me and directs and instructs me. We of course are not to worship her, but she is there to help us understand how the Father wants us to worship him. Thats why Jesus said he would send the helper to us.

Proverbs 1:1-30
1. The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;

2. To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

3. To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

4. To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.

5. A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

6. To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

7. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

8. My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: (these warnings are from our heavenly parents, not earthly ones)

9. For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

10. My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.

11. If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:

12. Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

13. We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:

14. Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:

15. My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:

16. For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.

17. Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.

18. And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.

19. So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.

20. (Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:)

21. She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

22. How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23. Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25. But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26. I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27. When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30. They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof

In Christ,
New Heart

Hi Cindy,

This is the sort of thing I’m thinking about. Not necessarily an ‘embodied’ spirit, but a force with feeling. I could say a kind of human feeling and send the conversation off on a tangent, but I really mean personality or character. My guess, like some other people, is that the personality of the spirit is God’s personality. But I’ve never experienced it – that sense of clarity or peace given to me by a personality. Sometimes I sure get those wonderful feelings, but never the sense that a personality gave it to me, not the person of God transferred through His spirit. This would be the true feeling of experiencing the Father, perhaps, where a person sure would be impelled to think ‘Abba, Father’, and be delighted in the realisation that you had ‘met’ the Father through His power, and it gave so much meaning to being His son.

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi Brendan,

I think many believers have experienced what you are describing, feeling like they were personally introduced to God, the whole experience seemed like the best of a family bonding. For me it felt like the embrace of my maternal grandmother, and this inner thought that everything is going to be alright.

designs

Hi TP and a warm welcome to PC.

Here are a few things we can consider when we ask " It or He ".

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" Mt 28:19

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all" 2 Cor 13:14

Although the verse gives us no information of 4th century Trinitarian doctrine of "three in one" etc, it most certainly proves the Holy Spirit is a person. To suggest we are to be baptized in the name of (or by the authority of) the Father, the Son and It, assaults our common sense. Three persons are clearly implied in this verse. With 2 Cor 13:14, like Mt 28:19, we have a three part combination verse that demands grace, love and fellowship be equally ascribed to three corresponding persons.


The Holy Spirit is outright said to have a mind which energy does not.

Rom 8:27 He has a mind. (The Father who searches the heart of man knows the mind of the Holy Spirit who interceeds.)


The Holy Spirit experience emotions, slights and injuries which energy or It does not.


Mt 12:31 "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit " (blaspheme energy/It?)
Heb 10:29 "and have insulted the Spirit" (insult energy/It?)
Acts 5:3 "You have lied unto the Holy Spirit " (lie to energy/It?)
Rom 15:30 "I urge you by the love of the Holy Spirit " (love energy/It?)
Eph 4:30 (Isa 63:10) "and do not grieve the Holy Spirit" (grieve energy/It?)


The Holy Spirit evaluates, reasons and chooses with intelligent freewill which energy cannot do.


John 16:14 "He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak"
Acts 15:28 "it seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit"
1 Cor 2:11 "He knows God's thoughts.
Jn 16:13 "He will guide you"
Acts 13:1-4 "being sent out by the Holy Spirit"
Acts 16:6 "forbidden by the Holy Spirit to go to Asia"
Acts 11:12 "He told Peter to go with Cornelius' men.
Acts 8:39 "He "caught Phillip away."
Matt 4:1; 1:12; Luke 4:11 He led Jesus into the wilderness.
Acts 20:28 The Holy Spirit has made [appointed] you overseers."


The Holy Spirit originates intelligent thought and speaks which energy cannot do.

Acts 13:2 "the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them"
2 Pet 1:21 He guided men to write Scripture and speak from God. The words of the Bible itself were chosen by the Holy Spirit. Energy is not intelligent.
Heb 9:8 "the Holy Spirit is indicating this."
Heb 10:15-17 (Jer. 31:33-34) "And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them""
Heb 3:7-11 (Ps. 95:7-11) Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you hear His voice
Mark 13:11; 10:19-20 "it is not you who speak, but the Holy spirit"
Acts 4:25 He spoke "by the mouth of David."
Jn 16:13 "Whatever He hears He will speak" He will disclose to the apostles "things to come."
Jn 16:14 "He shall glorify me"
Rom 8:14 "being led by the Spirit of God"
Rev 2:7,11,7,29; 3:6,13,22 "... let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
Luke 2:26 "He revealed to Simeon he would see the Christ.
1 Cor 2:10 "for the Spirit searches the mind of God" Is the Holy Spirit merely a web crawler of information... a massive data base?
Eph 3:5 "He reveals the mystery of Christ."
1 Pet 1:11 "Spirit of Christ" in the prophets "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."
1 Cor 2:13 "words taught by the Spirit"
1 Ti 4:1 "The Spirit explicitly says"
Acts 2:4 He gave the Apostles "utterance."


The Holy Spirit assists us in ways only another person could.


Rom 8:26 "He helps our weaknesses"
Rom 8:26 "He intercedes for us"
John 14:16,17,26; 16:7 The helper, advocate, lawyer like Christ 1 Jn 2:1


The Holy Spirit takes actions of intelligent freewill, which energy cannot do.

1 Cor 12:11 The Spirit decides (wills) what spiritual gift each will receive. Makes no sense if energy decides who it will give itself to!
1 Cor 12:11 ""the same Spirit works all these things."
1 Cor 2:10 "the Spirit searches all things"
2 Cor 3:6; Gal 6:8 "Shall from the Holy Spirit reap eternal life" Energy is not the source of life.
Rev 22:17 "The Spirit and the Bride say come (invite)"
1 Cor 12:13 "He baptizes us into Christ."


The Holy Spirit bears witness in a pattern that always involves a person:


The "Holy Spirit" is said to speak ("The Holy Spirit Says") , then quotes an Old Testament verse, is a pattern found throughout the New Testament proving He is a person: This is a function of bearing witness to scripture itself and always involves a person.

The "Holy Spirit says" in Heb 10:15-17 which is a quote from Jer 31:33-34.
"The Holy Spirit says" in Heb 3:7-11 which is a quote from Ps 95:7-11.
"Moses says, 'I will make you jealous '" in Rom 10:19 which is a quote from Deut. 32:21
"And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I was found by those who sought Me not'" in Rom 10:20 which is a quote from Is 65:1.



Many divine titles & names applied to the Holy Spirit show He is a person an not mere energy:


The Spirit of Life (Ezek 37:1-10; Jn 6:63)
The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah (Isa 61:1-3)
The Spirit of Holiness (Rom 1:4)
The Oil of Gladness (Heb 1:9)
The Holy Spirit of Promise (Eph 1:13)
The Spirit of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:19)
The Spirit (Jn 20:22; Gen 2:7)
The Spirit of the Living God (2 Cor 3:6)
LORD (Acts 28:25 & Heb 3:7)
The Spirit of Burning (Fire) (Mt 3:11)
The Spirit of God (l Cor 3:16)
The Spirit of burning (Isa 4:3-4)
The Spirit of Judgment (Isa 4:4)
The Spirit of His Son (Gal 4:6)
The Spirit of Glory (1 Pet 4:14)
God (Acts 5:3-4)
The Spirit of Life (Rom 8:2)
The Spirit of God, and of Christ (1 Cor 3:16, Rom 8:9)
The Spirit of Christ (Rom 8:9)
The Eternal Spirit (Heb 9:14)
The Spirit of Grace (Heb 10:29)
The Spirit of Wisdom and Knowledge (Isa 11:2)
The Spirit of Jehovah (Isa 11:2)
The Spirit of Knowledge and the Fear of the Lord (Isa 11:2)
The Holy Spirit (Lk 11:13)
The Spirit of Grace and Supplication (Zech 12:10)
The Comforter (Jn 14:26)
The Spirit of Truth (Jn 14:17; 15:26)
The Spirit of Jesus (Acts 16:6-7)
The Spirit of Counsel and Might (Acts 1:8,8:29, 16:6-7)


BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Hi designs,

I’m happy for anyone who has experienced that personal introduction to God. Coming from the JW background, I have an academic relationship with God, along with a pattern of intervention in my life that defies coincidence. I would love to get a show of hands to see how many have had a personal revelation and how many something less than that. The show of hands would not be an attempt to validate anyone’s experiences or not, but rather to see if there is a gulf of spiritual experience between individual Christians, and to try to figure out why.

Regards,
Brendan.

I've wondered if God chooses to meet us in ways we understand from our culture and experiences in life. People on different continents sometime describe their encounters with God in that context.

Maybe God uses what we are comfortable with like with his Son being introduced as a good Jewish child to that culture.

designs

Many thanks to all of you for giving such personal and comprehensive comments, further thanks to Isaiah 43:10 and Bethelboy for providing so much scripture that clearly teaches of the personality and authority of God the Holy Spirit. I am certainly encouraged by the sheer volume of the posts here and moreso the passion for the Word of God which is essential in discussing divine truth. This has been an encouragement to me given this is my first topic for discussion submitted, Shalom!

Bethelboy it's interesting to note that you use the WOTM site, I own the Evidence Bible and find it invaluable - the Lord bless you :)

:hibye::hibye::hibye::hibye:

Dear Brendan here is my show of hands.

I have definitely had spiritual experiences, and amazing events that cannot be coincidences.

vicky

Hey BethelBoy! :clap:


Hows it going mate? :hug:


You mentioned the Holy Spirit being an 'energy' and listed reasons for it not possible to be 'energy', stating reasons such as >

The Holy Spirit originates intelligent thought and speaks which energy cannot do.

The Holy Spirit evaluates, reasons and chooses with intelligent freewill which energy cannot do.

The Holy Spirit is outright said to have a mind which energy does not.

etc....


As I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person (though, I do believe it can take on personage attributes), I thought I would just comment on your reasonings.

1. The Holy Spirit = energy argument, does not mean that the Holy Spirit is like the stuff that powers the TV set.

2. The Holy Spirit is Spirit -- energy is something related to the physical realm. While it depends upon one's theological perspective -- it can be argued there is a difference between God and physical creation -- therefore, the Holy Spirit is not physical energy, but can be described as energy (Spirit energy, I suppose? hehehe!)

3. Energy IS Conscious. To say that Energy is not Conscious is to perceive matter, thereby existence from the Classical perspective - viewing existence as a mechanistic clockwork machine. This is not the case. On every level of physical creation, there are attributes of Consciousness, everything from the way sub-atomic particles behave, through to the molecular and cellular levels -- they all show attributes of Consciousness e.g reaction to external stimulis, reaction to Consciousness.

Atheist-inclined scientists grapple with the implications of discoveries that point to Consciousness -- but people of faith know why.

Its because it was created from the highest form of Consciousness -- God.


So actually, it can be argued that energy is quite capable of doing everything you mentioned that it could not.

Therefore it can be argued that the Holy Spirit is God's active force. (ok, maybe not just an active force -- but God's Intention, His Will in action)

May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends: