06-15-2009, 09:53 PM
Willa Wrote:
Yannis Wrote:
Hello all! :hibye:
I am not sure if this was touched on earlier and I am not going back to re-read all 115 entries. :D
Well, why not? Lol - j/k!
I found this on another discussion board and the line of reasoning is quite interesting as I've never thought of it explained this way.
Enjoy! :hug:
Before Jesus' death he said to his disciples that he was going away and told his disciples he would send the Holy Spirit:
John 14:16 and I will request the Father and he will give you another ("allos") helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, . . ."
If someone was helping you and then said he had to go but he would send another helper to be with you. When Jesus left and promised to send "another" helper, that meant another somebody like himself, a person.
Did the holy spirit turn out to be another person like Jesus? I think not - Jesus was a human but the holy spirit never assumed a human body. Perhaps the emphasis should be on 'another helper' instead of 'another somebody'?
The Greek word for "another" in this verse is "allos" and means another of the same kind. In Greek there is a word, "heteros", that means another of a different kind,..
If Jesus had meant that he would send another helper that was not a person like him, but an impersonal force, we would see the Greek word "heteros" here. See how both words are used in Ga 1:6,7
"I marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the One who called you with Christ's undeserved kindness over to another ("heteros" - of a different kind) sort of good news. 7 But it is not another ("allos" - of a similar kind); only there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ."
These Galatians had gone over to another different good news that was not another good news of the same kind. In John 14:16 when Jesus said that he would send "another" helper, the helper that Jesus would send, the Holy Spirit, would be another ("allos") helper, a person like Jesus. Again, I believe the emphasis is on 'helper', for Jesus didn't specify a 'person' like himself, but "allos", of a similar kind - similar in that they both were sent by and came from God?
Jesus said at John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.â€
When Jesus said that he did not speak of his "own impulse", did this mean that Jesus was not a person and not able to think on his own or only able to repeat what he heard? This type of reasoning is called something but I can't remember what...
Of course he never said he wasn't able to think on his own - in fact he said at John 10:17 & 18 that he took the initiative to lay down his own life.
Jesus said the same thing about the Holy Spirit at John 16:13-15
"However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares [it] to you."
Jesus said the same thing about himself as he said about the “spirit of the truth.†Since he tells his disciples that the Spirit will not speak of his own impulse it means that the Spirit has the capacity to speak on “his ownâ€. Not necessarily - this is the same kind of reasoning used above that says "if this is so, then that must also be so" - which we know, is not always "so"! To prove that point one must supply a scripture that says the holy spirit says or does something that is apart, or independent, from whatever God says or does. There are no scriptures that apply.
That is why Jesus was informing his disciples beforehand that the Spirit would not be acting on his own just as Jesus would not. Jesus said that he could not do anything on his own at John 5:19 and that did not imply that he was not a person. OK... but Jesus, the human, was standing in front of them speaking - so of course he was a person! But the Holy Spirit never stood in front of them, so evidently it/he is not the same - but similar.
So when Jesus said the same thing for the Spirit that does not imply that the Spirit is an impersonal force. If the “spirit of the truth†is only a mindless active force under God's control and Jesus' disciples knew this, why would Jesus bother to even say that the “spirit†would not be speaking on “his own impulse� Well, I don't think God's Spirit is "a mindless active force" - it's decidedly more than the simple 'electricity' explanation from the WT though.
They would already know that? Jesus said that the Spirit speaks what he hears. So the Spirit is able to hear something that comes from a separate person… if the Spirit were only a force that transmits information from God, why didnt Jesus say that? Why did he say that the Spirit hears and speaks as if it were a person? Yeah, why didn't he explain a LOT of things further? Lol - we can say that about so many Bible subjects! Why do angels speak as though they are God? Because He has sent them to represent Him. Jesus was sent from God and spoke for Him. And so the Spirit is also sent from God, but I don't know of any scripture where it/he has a body, except by being seen "in the form of a dove" and also in the form of "tongues of fire", so it/he must be something else other than that which we call 'a person', different from even the angels. Who says that the Spirit "only transmits information from God"? Does the WT teach that? I barely remember what they teach and I call that a good thing. ;)
But one thing I do remember is that the word translated in most Bibles as 'spirit' is the Hebrew word "ruach" or the Greek word "pneuma" (in Latin - 'spiritu') - all meaning "breath" - God's breath as in 'the breath of life' that comes only from God.
Using the reasoning in this little essay, one could say the Holy Spirit is a bird, for a bird stirs up the wind with it's beating wings to fly in 'the heavens' and it soars on wind currents - and the clincher would be that it came down from heaven in the form of a dove at Jesus' baptism! Oh, but... we'd have to take all other scriptures into consideration and then that conclusion wouldn't hold up, right? That's what we have here in this piece - God's Spirit is not represented by a personal pronoun in all scriptural references, not by a long shot.
Zechariah spoke of God's Spirit as being "poured out":
Zechariah 12:10
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
And Joel:
Joel 2:28, 29
" It will come about after this. That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.
"Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
And Peter:
Acts 2:17, 18
' AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRITAnd they shall prophesy.
Acts 2:33
"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
Acts 10:45
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
And Paul:
Romans 5:5
and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
I believe God's Spirit is Holy because it is from Him and of Him, and so can reasonably be called "He". It is inextricably connected to Him - not separate or independent from Him - and it is the unseen means or power directly from Him that He uses, in one way, to transfer us from death to life - as in the way one must be born of His Spirit in order to receive life in the age to come, to be seen as alive to Him and be written in His and the Lamb's Book of Life.
Romans 8:2- For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
John 3:5- Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
We are born[again] of the Spirit of God, or 'born from above' through(by means of) His spirit - not by 'another person' but by God Himself and it is under His control. It's under Jesus' control too, since the Father has given him authority over all things - it is called "the Spirit of Christ" at Romans 8:9 & Philippians 1:19. It's called a 'gift' from God at Luke 11:13; Acts 2:38, 10:45; Hebrews 2:4.
There's so much we don't know about Holy Spirit, few conclusions that to me are hard and fast - but I do not think of it as 'another person' like Jesus, because it simply isn't represented as a bodily person in scripture.The personality implied by the personal pronouns used in some verses must be weighed with the whole of Biblical teaching and cannot stand alone. But perhaps God sends out His spirit in different ways at different times and thus it's experienced differently by people which they relate to in their own unique perspectives.
Since "it blows where it wishes" maybe God doesn't intend for us to nail down a 'definition' - but to just be in complete stuttering awe of the wonderful way He works!
Deep subject, man! :yes:
:peace:
I am not sure if this was touched on earlier and I am not going back to re-read all 115 entries. :D
Well, why not? Lol - j/k!
I found this on another discussion board and the line of reasoning is quite interesting as I've never thought of it explained this way.
Enjoy! :hug:
Before Jesus' death he said to his disciples that he was going away and told his disciples he would send the Holy Spirit:
John 14:16 and I will request the Father and he will give you another ("allos") helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, . . ."
If someone was helping you and then said he had to go but he would send another helper to be with you. When Jesus left and promised to send "another" helper, that meant another somebody like himself, a person.
Did the holy spirit turn out to be another person like Jesus? I think not - Jesus was a human but the holy spirit never assumed a human body. Perhaps the emphasis should be on 'another helper' instead of 'another somebody'?
The Greek word for "another" in this verse is "allos" and means another of the same kind. In Greek there is a word, "heteros", that means another of a different kind,..
If Jesus had meant that he would send another helper that was not a person like him, but an impersonal force, we would see the Greek word "heteros" here. See how both words are used in Ga 1:6,7
"I marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the One who called you with Christ's undeserved kindness over to another ("heteros" - of a different kind) sort of good news. 7 But it is not another ("allos" - of a similar kind); only there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ."
These Galatians had gone over to another different good news that was not another good news of the same kind. In John 14:16 when Jesus said that he would send "another" helper, the helper that Jesus would send, the Holy Spirit, would be another ("allos") helper, a person like Jesus. Again, I believe the emphasis is on 'helper', for Jesus didn't specify a 'person' like himself, but "allos", of a similar kind - similar in that they both were sent by and came from God?
Jesus said at John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.â€
When Jesus said that he did not speak of his "own impulse", did this mean that Jesus was not a person and not able to think on his own or only able to repeat what he heard? This type of reasoning is called something but I can't remember what...
Of course he never said he wasn't able to think on his own - in fact he said at John 10:17 & 18 that he took the initiative to lay down his own life.
Jesus said the same thing about the Holy Spirit at John 16:13-15
"However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares [it] to you."
Jesus said the same thing about himself as he said about the “spirit of the truth.†Since he tells his disciples that the Spirit will not speak of his own impulse it means that the Spirit has the capacity to speak on “his ownâ€. Not necessarily - this is the same kind of reasoning used above that says "if this is so, then that must also be so" - which we know, is not always "so"! To prove that point one must supply a scripture that says the holy spirit says or does something that is apart, or independent, from whatever God says or does. There are no scriptures that apply.
That is why Jesus was informing his disciples beforehand that the Spirit would not be acting on his own just as Jesus would not. Jesus said that he could not do anything on his own at John 5:19 and that did not imply that he was not a person. OK... but Jesus, the human, was standing in front of them speaking - so of course he was a person! But the Holy Spirit never stood in front of them, so evidently it/he is not the same - but similar.
So when Jesus said the same thing for the Spirit that does not imply that the Spirit is an impersonal force. If the “spirit of the truth†is only a mindless active force under God's control and Jesus' disciples knew this, why would Jesus bother to even say that the “spirit†would not be speaking on “his own impulse� Well, I don't think God's Spirit is "a mindless active force" - it's decidedly more than the simple 'electricity' explanation from the WT though.
They would already know that? Jesus said that the Spirit speaks what he hears. So the Spirit is able to hear something that comes from a separate person… if the Spirit were only a force that transmits information from God, why didnt Jesus say that? Why did he say that the Spirit hears and speaks as if it were a person? Yeah, why didn't he explain a LOT of things further? Lol - we can say that about so many Bible subjects! Why do angels speak as though they are God? Because He has sent them to represent Him. Jesus was sent from God and spoke for Him. And so the Spirit is also sent from God, but I don't know of any scripture where it/he has a body, except by being seen "in the form of a dove" and also in the form of "tongues of fire", so it/he must be something else other than that which we call 'a person', different from even the angels. Who says that the Spirit "only transmits information from God"? Does the WT teach that? I barely remember what they teach and I call that a good thing. ;)
But one thing I do remember is that the word translated in most Bibles as 'spirit' is the Hebrew word "ruach" or the Greek word "pneuma" (in Latin - 'spiritu') - all meaning "breath" - God's breath as in 'the breath of life' that comes only from God.
Using the reasoning in this little essay, one could say the Holy Spirit is a bird, for a bird stirs up the wind with it's beating wings to fly in 'the heavens' and it soars on wind currents - and the clincher would be that it came down from heaven in the form of a dove at Jesus' baptism! Oh, but... we'd have to take all other scriptures into consideration and then that conclusion wouldn't hold up, right? That's what we have here in this piece - God's Spirit is not represented by a personal pronoun in all scriptural references, not by a long shot.
Zechariah spoke of God's Spirit as being "poured out":
Zechariah 12:10
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
And Joel:
Joel 2:28, 29
" It will come about after this. That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.
"Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
And Peter:
Acts 2:17, 18
' AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRITAnd they shall prophesy.
Acts 2:33
"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
Acts 10:45
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
And Paul:
Romans 5:5
and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
I believe God's Spirit is Holy because it is from Him and of Him, and so can reasonably be called "He". It is inextricably connected to Him - not separate or independent from Him - and it is the unseen means or power directly from Him that He uses, in one way, to transfer us from death to life - as in the way one must be born of His Spirit in order to receive life in the age to come, to be seen as alive to Him and be written in His and the Lamb's Book of Life.
Romans 8:2- For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
John 3:5- Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
We are born[again] of the Spirit of God, or 'born from above' through(by means of) His spirit - not by 'another person' but by God Himself and it is under His control. It's under Jesus' control too, since the Father has given him authority over all things - it is called "the Spirit of Christ" at Romans 8:9 & Philippians 1:19. It's called a 'gift' from God at Luke 11:13; Acts 2:38, 10:45; Hebrews 2:4.
There's so much we don't know about Holy Spirit, few conclusions that to me are hard and fast - but I do not think of it as 'another person' like Jesus, because it simply isn't represented as a bodily person in scripture.The personality implied by the personal pronouns used in some verses must be weighed with the whole of Biblical teaching and cannot stand alone. But perhaps God sends out His spirit in different ways at different times and thus it's experienced differently by people which they relate to in their own unique perspectives.
Since "it blows where it wishes" maybe God doesn't intend for us to nail down a 'definition' - but to just be in complete stuttering awe of the wonderful way He works!
Deep subject, man! :yes:
:peace:
Hi Willa, thanks for the excellent points you brought about. :thumbup:
And, you are right. It is hard to "nail" down the Spirit. :)
He is anything and everything!
