Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Folks

I recently set up a blog of my own. Eventually, I want to populate it with proof and evidence of God's existence, for the general public. It has an unusual name: "God Exists: Real Proof", mainly because I wanted to get in the keywords that people might use if they were to do a search on Google for things like "does god exist?" or "proof god exists"... but all the smaller and better domain names had gone :)

Anyway, I just wrote a piece, "Why Does A Loving God Allow Suffering?" and I'd be honoured if you guys and gals would take a look. You'll probably be familiar with some of the arguments, but I think I've noticed a few interesting nuances which you might enjoy... we've discussed these issues before, so many of the thoughts have probably come from this board.

If you enjoy the article, feel free to comment on the blog. (Even if you think it sucks, you're welcome to comment... just don't be toooo nasty, eh?!)

http://godexistsrealproof.com/bible/why-...suffering/

Thanks!

Hi Br. InterP :hibye:

Spiritually invigorating, to say the least! I battle so many atheists and agnostics that their arguments start taking root sometimes. Reading something like that snaps me right out of it. So, BRAVO! :clap:

Keep it coming! :eat:

...and thanks for pointing out about the watery deeps... :thumbup:this is a little understood concept that really needs to be.....it's the reason we need a "new heavens and a new earth". (Yes, I think the heavens were involved too....)

:heartbeat::heartbeat:
Jesh

What drivel,,

Pause for the awkward silence.


Just kiddin ya,,:clap: very nice I wish I could have said it that well..


it's really hard to throw ajoke out in this crowd I never get a laugh..

If it makes you feel better -- im always laughin' at ya Frank! :friends::D:thumbsup:

You should be on stage.

Sweeping up. :funnyface:

Nah, I laughed, after the initial trauma :D

:greatjob: Good going, Frank!

And you're definitely onto something about the suffering of the earth. Archaeological evidence (although sometimes suppressed or buried in the back pages of scientific journals) such as the skeletons of giants that are found (Gen. 6:4 “There were giants on the earth in those days”) and the size of dinosaurs’ nostrils, etc. certainly suggest a very different and more oxygen-rich pre-flood environment than we have now. Also, if you notice the ages people lived to pre-flood and then after…hmmm. We now realize the many health benefits associated with oxygen chambers. I heard Michael Jackson has one and may live forever…:scared:

Here’s some notes I took previously about the state of the earth:

Initial creation: Perfect Gen 1:1, Gen 1:31

After the fall: Cursed Gen 3:17; Isa 24:5-6; Rom 5:12

After the flood: Reshaped Psalm 104:6-9

During the tribulation: Renovated Rev. 6:12-14

During millennium: Restored Isa 11:6-8; Isa 40:4; Rev 16:20; Isa 35:5-6; Isa 65:20

After millennium: Removed Rev 21:1; Isa 65:17; Rev 20:11; 2 Pet 3:10

Eternal state: Recreated Rev 21:1-2; Rev 21:4-5; Rev 22:5; Rev 22:1-2

Hi Interpretum,

Not to break up the rolling-in-the-aisle :rofl: haha humour but you asked for some input. :read: It's very good!

Actually, I find John's words insightful when he said, "As for us, we love, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

John puts things in prospective. If God did not first love us, our life would never have begun and we would thus not exist. So really, we owe Him love through life. Those who think life is something deserved do not appreciate life as a gift, but a right deserved. But according to John, the life we receive through God's love was a gift not deserved. Therefore, if life was not deserved, in what way can we blame God for anything?

Just my two cents,

sw

Hi Isaiah 43:10! :cheer:

This might sound odd (... pause for heads nodding :yes::yes::yes:in agreement...) but do you think that gravity could have been different then? You know... water canopy in the sky, not on earth, before the flood; less mass at earth level, more at sky level; how come the dinosaurs were'nt crushed under their own weight; that sort of thing.

Yes it is odd, but... I've been wrong before and I'm not afraid of ridicule :rofl:(says me, :paperbag: hiding in a box in the corner)

Acts5v29

Hi Acts5v29!

I don't want to go into too much detail here, because I don't want to detract from the original thread, so if you are in related discussions elsewhere, let me know...I don't get too much time to look around.

But I will say just quickly that you’re certainly not odd or alone in your line of thought…scientists from top universities all over have been pondering the same question for awhile. We know gravity is a consequence of the structure of matter, and if more scientists took into account a worldwide cataclysmic event such as the Biblical flood and the effects of it (mountains rising up, the water canopy and much of the water under the crust of the earth forming oceans, etc...) it would probably shed more light on the subject.

:peace:

I was thinking more on the suffering issue today, more for our benefit than for atheists questioning the existence of God. We know the Bible tells us that Christ came to give us life, and life more abundant. And it’s the thief that comes to kill, steal and destroy.

One thing I really can’t stand to hear is something like, “Oh, it’s so sad that poor little so-and-so died (adult/child/anyone) but Uncle Bob was saved, so God must have done it to accomplish His purpose” or some sort of thing. From my understanding of the NT, if God wanted Uncle Bob saved, He would use some other means, naturally through His servants or supernaturally, but would never kill a person to save another. What kind of sense does that make?

Suffering is the result of sin…not necessarily individual sin that we should point fingers if someone dies or develops cancer or loses their job, but the curse of sin in general. But we know that God can and does take what Satan means for harm and turn it around for good in the lives of those who love Him.

A couple of other thoughts, though…what about the role of suffering in God’s refining of us and in His chastisement of us? Also, in drawing us closer to Him and possibly putting us in a situation where we must rely on Him rather than ourselves? I don’t know about everyone else here, but my valley experiences really send me to my knees and cause me to seek God’s face more so than my mountain top ones.

:peace:

Ditto Isaiah 43:10,:thumbup:

Christ our shepherd doesn't cause the suffering, but the wolves and thieves and false shepherds do. Perhaps when we're in those valleys we look for help more, and tend to feel a little more independent where we're on the mountain tops and believe we've "made it", we don't need guidance, everything is fine (!) How many of us have had that delusion (and probably will again tomorrow).

Thinking on the suffering issue - "Why does God allow it?" - do we ever consider what He is suffering?

He's been slandered for thousands of years in what is effect a long-term debate on whether we need Him or not. He'll be slandered continuously until the issue is proved, and He can't overly intervene - it just has to run it's course. All creation has heard the jibes against Him - it's affected their faith and belief and hope - all the long-lived spirit creatures have heard it ad nauseum and look on the earth and see His creation going the wrong way, unable to intervene - isn't He suffering? Aren't the loyal angels taunted too?

And at the end of it all, Jehovah has to kill one of the spirit creatures - and all of his followers - lives He intended should live forever! What a prospect, killing what He'd created, and like anyone who sees a soul die, the loyal angels will feel the practical knowledge that their life - too - is not immortal. What horrible feelings induced in a creation He intended to be peaceful - and God hasn't sinned for His suffering.

There's only one group which isn't yet suffering in all this... perverse I know, but perhaps we should be pleased we're not members.

Acts5v29

The suffering issue is the hardest one for many to conquer. Human rationality makes it difficult to look past our own or our loved one's pain.

Personally, I feel that conquearing this objection is one of the first steps that we take to show OUR love for Jehovah. When we look outside ourselves and see that something bigger is going on, and feel love for the personality for the entity that we feel can stop the craziness, we then become lovers of Jehovah. As we gain more knowledge learning about His ransom provision through his own family sacrifice and Jesus's willingness, well then we become Christians.

All of this shows our heart condition.

I appreciate your reaching out with your love and expressing yourself with your blog. There nothing that I find so sweet as our 'homemade' gifts to Jehovah and Jesus. I feel like we are all Jehovah's children saying, "Here, Daddy, Look what I made for you!"

With Christian Fondness, Debbie

Acts, I agree with your point of view; Jehovah suffering from all of this. There is no way that Jehovah's heart cannot be suffering. I 'feel' your point of view.
About the demons, I think they have alot more self made destructive trauma than we have any insight or understanding. I believe that without Jehovah's spirit that they are suffering knowing that their doom is lingering. Causing us suffering is only momentary excitement, after a 'hit' on someone, they are left in the same emptiless despair. That's my feelings on the matter. I just don't feel sorry them. Do you think any of them felt remorse and was forgiven? I've wondered about that one in a while.

With Christian Love, Debbie

Dear Acts 5V29,

I don't give it much thought either. It just comes up in the forgiveness issue for me. I think your thoughts on the issue were well laid out. I appreciate that.

I feel uncomfortable thinking about the wicked spirit creatures, too. Gives real meaning to the word 'spooks' if you ask me. If I think about them, would that open up an opportunity for them? I think I was tightly brainwashed during the 'Smurfs' craze. Don't think, don't think, or something might come off the wals and dance on your bed. I didn't like to open my eyes for years in the dark after that one.

With Christian Love, Debbie

Just read this or any account of this case & tell me God cared for this little boy: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7708398.stm

Yes there's the ressurection but thats not the answer as to why he could allow this child to suffer 17months of torture.

Some say maybe God numbed him from the pain of having his nails pulled out, his back & his ribs broken...................good grief what drivel. If he could be so envolved with this little boy's agony that he numbed his pain as the violent acts were performed on his beautiful little hands, his beautiful little toes & his beautiful little body he could've just as easily stopped it.

I believe in Jehovah, I am not atheist, I just cannot get my head around him being so impotent in preventing individual cases of heinous malevolence especially towards babies & children.

I know I'm wrong to feel like this but when I try to reconcile him being a God of love I find I just do not like him.

Floriferous