Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hey Floriferous ,

I agree with you in so many ways,

But I think it is a catch 22. interven in some cases and not in others.

May I refere to Job, a great testemony of faith on his part but his whole family seemed to pay with their lives. Because he was under test. I don't understand how this works.

who knows maybe thru his faith he saved his whole family for the long term? they suffered alittle but will be rewarded?

Hi Floriferous

You posed a good question, which generally speaking could be summed up as, "Why doesn't God intervene in X?" where X is any situation in which somebody suffers.

Let's imagine that God DID intervene in the scenario involving the boy in the story, so that somehow the boy was spared the suffering in the first place.

This surely means that either...

(a) God must help EVERY person who is about to suffer, or

(b) God must pick and choose who He helps to prevent suffering.

If God now helps every person, option (a), then technically we are in the New World, where there is no more pain and suffering! But there is also no freedom of choice, as you'd live in a kind of "Minority Report" world where crime (which almost always results in some form of suffering to the victim) was divinely prevented before it happened.

The problem with this scenario is that nobody has free choice, because they are prevented from doing bad in the first place, so nobody gets to choose good!

I suspect that one of the things God wants the human race to learn is to choose to do good.

In the alternative scenario: If God picks and chooses, then this opens God up to further charges: Why help the suffering boy, for instance, but not the other person who didn't get help? Is it an age thing? Is it about the severity of the suffering? Upon what basis does God help some, and not others?

I think reality is closer to this scenario: obviously God does "pick and choose" to a certain extent, because some people pray and get help, while others pray and don't get helped, or just don't pray and don't get helped.

The world in general are no longer God's children, having disconnected themselves from God like Adam and Eve (compare John 1:11).

If there were no suffering ever, how would the world choose to do good, rather than evil?

If the boy's suffering was prevented, what then? Would those men have attempted to inflict suffering on others? Would they have gone their entire life attempting (but being divinely prevented) from doing this?

Only God knows. But remember that God has a different perspective than us.

Human perspective tends to be...

(a) Very limited,
(b) Quick to judge,
© Wants results immediately.

God's perspective is...

(a) Eternal, seeing the indefinite past and future.
(b) Slow to judge
© Patient.

A lot has been said on this subject by the Bible writers, such as Peter expressing how God's "slowness" is really "patience", God bringing speedy justice to his children, Job having the wrong perspective of God's justice, and so on.

When Peter was talking about God's "slowness" in 2 Peter 3, he was putting into God's perspective, and explained that it was really God's patience.

If God was as quick to judge as some people want, there would probably be far fewer people left alive on the planet!

So we must look at the suffering issue from God's perspective (as far as we're able to do), and really ask why God did not intervene in that boy's suffering, for example.

Is it really because God doesn't care? Or is it something else?

I think it is something else altogether. But we can only fathom it if we see things from God's perspective, not our own.

I had the privilage to here the message on the Link below live and SOOOO enjoyed it I thought I'd link it here since one of the 3 questions asked was " Jesus and the question of Suffering "

The Q&A time was great and is also here link #6.

http://www.haltonhillsbiblechapel.com/de...nt_id=1217


Enjoy!!!

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Dear Floriferous!:rose::hug:

God bless you, sister! Please don't feel "wrong" or lacking in faith over what you're feeling - we were never made to tolerate that kind of news, it's just too much for any of us to think about.

I heard this news in shock too. But Jehovah can't step in to prevent it yet, He simply can't. He loves us, He wants the best for us, it seems grossly unfair, and it is to us and to Him, but He can't intervene yet...

The whole issue of the scriptures, as you know, is from Genesis:

"Does mankind need God?"

- that's what the adversary put into the minds of Adam and Eve, that they wouldn't need Jehovah. When that issue is solved, then the adversary will have been proved to be a trouble-maker, a liar, completely. But not before.

There have been plenty of wars, famines, disasters that mankind has sorted out - the recent financial crisis is one where total disaster has been averted - so some things we can manage. But before the issue can be concluded - and the adversary rendered harmless - we must wait for something that will be our total ruin, where mankind cannot save itself. And here's the dreadful, painful point:

If Jehovah steps in on anything before then, the adversary could cry out at Him:

"Foul! Mankind could have solved that - I always said they could! - but You interfered, because that's what You do. I gave them freedom, but You just want to control them!"
and the issue would be lost by default. Creation would be lost, and God would be seen as an interfering God who wouldn't let justice run to the finish.

It may sound "legalistic", but thats what any issue is. Cold and needing proof, and the consequences in the meantime are truly monstrous. Ironically, Jehovah wants to help; we all have free will - forever - He doesn't force us to do anything, just attracts us with His kind and caring qualities. Intervening "because He has the power" is the very opposite of His character, and the adversary would be delighted if he - in his mischief - could change the nature of God, show God's kindness as "a falsehood hiding a dictator, a ploy to get creation to love Him". God's reputation would never recover. So instead Jehovah watches all the suffering - as we do more and more with television and the internet - and feels the immense sadness just as we do. He knows He cannot intervene, for our sakes, and for the sakes of all intelligent creation in the Heavens.

I know it's hard, it's heartbreaking! but that is one of the weapons the adversary is happy to use, knowing it brings down all manner of hatred and disbelief in the God who really, really, want to help us. People speaking casually of the resurrection and that terrible phrase "it's God's will" really don't help, they make God seem distant and aloof and telling us we should just put up with it. But at least, when we know the reason behind it, that all this pain is being used as an enticement to try to goad God into acting and losing the issue - and all creation - by default, it takes away just a tiny part of the pain of a 17 month old child beaten to death, a tiny part.

Humbly, these might help a little:

Climate Crisis - Identifying the Last Prophet
Divine Rescue - the End of the Issue

God bless, sister!

Acts5v29:heartbeat:

Thank you all for following up my input.

Of course I already know the points you make, & if Jehovah decided to destroy the wicked right now I would most likely be included. However I'm going think deeply about what's been written...................

By the way dear, dear Acts5v29 I'm a bruvva.

I guess my name 'Floriferous' indicates I may be female & the way I write maybe? My name is because of my love for plants & flowers for which I have heartfelt praise for the creator.

I am tho a brother............but one that is mixed up in many ways! :hug:

I know the song is a bit catholic but I've always loved the message. And somehow the one playing it this time puts greater meaning to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuIkrsdrJLY

sw

Hi sw,

This is a classy poem. You put your thoughts together so well to deal with one of the worst cases of evil I’ve heard about in a long time. The reaction where I live is pretty extreme.

For there is no such greater crime
Than that which makes no sense,

My wife and I often find ourselves saying “I just don’t understand it. How can they do such a thing” and I’m coming to the conclusion that if we start to understand these people, maybe we’re in trouble! There must a deep empty hole where a heart should be.

While we still glibly speak of God,
And all His tender love.

The Lord must exercise a lot of restraint in these situations. And we do speak too glibly of how He blesses us when such grief can befall another human being, especially such vulnerable ones. I guess we should be more circumspect and keep in mind the horror of this world for so many –‘the groaning creation waiting for the revealing of the sons of God’. I realise it can be done with encouragement in mind, but it doesn’t do much for the ones coping with great distress.

I think poetry must be a fine way of processing emotion. It certainly helps me, the reader, do it, so I hope you as the writer get even more out of it.

Thanks,
Brendan.

Hi All,

James has posted images of the current Watchtower study called 'Jehovah is the Provider of Escape for Us' on e-watchman's site. This page deals with a father's loss of his daughter, who was murdered, and serious illness.

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p480/...G_0004.jpg

Brendan.