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I was doing a bit of thinking about the infamous "mark of the beast" last night. I appreciate that many people think it may be some form of microchip or tattoo imposed by the New World Order.

As many of you know, I view the wild beasts as a logical development of Daniel's wild beasts, namely the pagan Roman Empire (1st beast) followed by the Papal power (2nd beast).

However, in thinking about this "mark", I noticed that the footnote to the NWT Reference Bible says this with reference to the "mark":

"Lit., "engraving." Gr., kha'rag.ma; J... (Heb.) hat.taw', 'the taw,' the Heb. letter corresponding to the English letter 'T.' Compare Eze 9:4 ftn."

In other words, it appeared the "taw" was something akin to a T bar... which sounded a bit like a cross to me.

Then I compared it to Ezekiel 9:4's footnote as suggested. This is the passage where Jehovah commands the man in linen to go through Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those sighing and groaning over the detestable things being done in the city.

The footnote there says this:

"Lit., 'you must mark a mark.' The Heb. word for the noun 'mark' is taw, the last letter of the Heb. alphabet, which was anciently a cross mark (X). See Job 31:35 where taw is translated 'signature.'"

Now, I found this pretty remarkable, because I was already of the belief that the 2nd wild beast of Revelation is the Papal power, which fashioned the "Holy" Roman Empire out of the "ten kings" that previously made up the Roman Empire in Europe.

And the "taw" was "anciently a cross mark"! We know that the Christians inherited the cross symbol from Constantine, who saw the sign of the cross in the sky and led his armies into conquest, and eventually became head of the Church.

The cross became the symbol under which the Church later went on its conquests and crusades, and it was the sign of the cross that adherents of the Church gave.

In Deuteronomy 6, Jehovah commanded the Israelites to remember his words, saying: "You must tie them as a sign upon your hand, and they must serve as a frontlet band between your eyes; and you must write them upon the doorposts of your house and on your gates." (verses 7-9)

In Revelation 13, we have something similar. The "mark" was in their right hand or forehead, mimicking the Law covenant's sign upon the hand, and frontlet band between the eyes.

We can combine this with Irenaeus, an early church father, writing in the 2nd century, who noted:

"Then also Lateinos has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule." (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 30).

"Lateinos" would describe a Latin speaking man, and was considered a "very probable" solution to 666 by him, because it was the name of the 4th kingdom, the Latins.

Latin was a major common thread between the 1st beast, the pagan Roman Empire, and the 2nd wild beast, the Papal power.

So, given the fact that the "mark" originates from the Hebrew word taw, which was anciently written as a cross mark, is it merely coincidence that this "cross" later came to shape world history in a major way?

Here are the facts about the Papacy that fit the description of the 2nd wild beast perfectly...

(a) It emerged as a power in its own right from the Roman empire,

(b) The Roman empire eventually fragmented into several kingdoms, and the Papal power conquered three of them, at one point having a physical kingdom on earth (called the Papal kingdoms.)

(c ) The Papacy came into being in the sight of the Roman emperor. (Popes often chastized and punished the emperors, even as far back as the 4th century!)

(d) Around 800AD, it had the "Holy" Roman Empire fashioned as an image of the former empire. The "Holy" Roman Empire had secular power, but was subject to the Pope.

(e) Just as the "two witnesses" breathe fire symbolically, the Papal bulls rained down fire from heaven on all opponents.

(f) The prophet Jeremiah was commissioned "to be over the nations and over the kingdoms, in order to uproot and to pull down and to destroy and to tear down, to build and to plant". The Papacy also claimed this very thing.

(g) It conquered with the "cross", and its adherents make the sign of the cross (the taw, or "mark".)

If the 2nd beast really is the Papacy, then this begs some questions...

Q: Why can nobody buy or sell without the mark?

Actually, a person only needed one of three things in order to "buy or sell"...

(1) The mark (the X),
(2) The name of the wild beast (Lateinos), OR
(3) The number of its name (666).

During the "Dark Ages", a Papal bull was issued, which prevented Catholics from buying or selling to non-Catholics. This meant that, unless you either accepted the authority of the Church (as a Catholic), or you were part of the Church/State system (i.e. a bishop), you couldn't live in the kingdom and buy or sell.

Q: What about people who didn't know any better than to accept this "mark", during the Dark Ages?

I believe Revelation is broadly chronological, although recapping on themes at times.

During the Dark Ages, the Church locked up scripture in Latin, making it very hard for individuals to realize they were being scammed by the beast. So I think this is taken into account, when viewing Revelation chronologically.

Once the power of the Church was weakened following the Reformation, people quickly identified the Roman Church with Babylon. (For instance, the Geneva Bible, used by the pilgrims to America, contained footnotes which explicitly identified Babylon as Rome). That is why "she has fallen" in Revelation 14, even though she is burned and destroyed in Rev 17-19.

Ancient Babylon was knocked off her perch as "Mistress of Kingdoms" (Isaiah 47:5) in 539BC, but the city did not become depopulated and a complete ruin for hundreds of years.

Similarly, the Roman Church was humiliated from the Reformation onwards, and particularly from the time of Napoleon, who dragged the Pope off to prison in 1798(?), and she had lost her Papal kingdoms by 1870.

By this time, it should have been clear to the world that her "mark" (the X) was false.

We should note that, in Rev 14:9, those who still worship the beast and receive its mark, also drink of the wine of the anger of God.

These are poured out in the seven bowls of Rev 16, which in my opinion describe the events particularly of Europe from 1870 onwards. (For instance, there are 2 bowls which involve blood [the 2nd and 3rd bowls], which I think correspond with World Wars I and II.) The 1st bowl, "malignent ulcers" symbolize the internal disorders, revolutions and civil wars that led up to the two world wars.

All of these things came particularly upon Europe, because they were still worshipping the beast, and still had the mark. For instance, Hitler and Mussolini could not have got anywhere near close to conquering Europe without the help of the Church!

So in short, the "mark" (the taw, or cross [X]) became a compulsory symbol during the Dark Ages, but God's judgment upon people with the mark did not commence until the "seven bowls", when State and Cross lovers were plunged into revolutions (1st bowl), two World Wars (2nd and 3rd bowls), the scorching rules of the dictators such as Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tito etc (4th bowl), and the darkness of godless philosophies such as Communism (behind the "Iron CURTAIN"), materialism and atheism (the 5th bowl).

The people of the Dark Ages generally didn't know any better (with perhaps a few notable exceptions, who were usually burnt at the stake anyway.) The people of Europe after the Dark Ages should have known better, because the scriptures became widely published.

That is why, in my opinion, from the time of the initial fall of Babylon (Rome) during thr 19th century, Europe was plagued with wars, revolutions and darkness.

That was the direct result of either the mixing of Church and State (aka the Third Reich), or the attempt to eliminate the mix between Church and State (i.e. the French Revolution, or Communism.)
Hi Brother Interpretum :hibye:

Great stuff!

So, should we not expect a future mark (everywhere) :confused:

Is it crazy to say that I can see this whole scenario boiling down to the Jesuits and their Pope ruling from a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem? It would make some sense, would it not? The confusion about BTG being Rome or Jerusalem (and all that)....well what if Rome moved to Jerusalem? (and the good ole USA has largely made it possible)

Isn't it the goal of the Bildercheeseburgers to return all of us cattle to the dark ages while they rule the earth? Are they not planning in secret meetings how to go about this, getting year-long visits from Satan himself every 28 years? (...the "Feast of the Beast", it's been happening all along)

Is this not a most obvious "prophetic pattern"? :D

:heartbeat::heartbeat:
Jesh
Most excellent!
And if it is the "Taw" or (X) that is the mark by which we buy and sell, is this not our "mark", or signature that we usually use today, to buy or sell? And is not "Taw" or "X mark" where we get our English word,
"tick" = "credit" (17 century English), from where we get our word "ticket", = licence to buy or enter)?
If we don't use our literal signature to buy, we often use our "number", credit card.
Perhaps the fulfillment will be just that, a state issued card or electronic device authorizing a person.
Hi Jesh

Jeshurun Wrote:
Great stuff!

So, should we not expect a future mark (everywhere) :confused:


Well, I personally don't think so, but that's not to say we shouldn't personally stay awake. For example, the Third Reich was a perfect example of what happens when the Church and State mix, and there's nothing to say that couldn't happen again elsewhere.

Quote:
Is it crazy to say that I can see this whole scenario boiling down to the Jesuits and their Pope ruling from a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem? It would make some sense, would it not? The confusion about BTG being Rome or Jerusalem (and all that)....well what if Rome moved to Jerusalem? (and the good ole USA has largely made it possible)


Well, that would definitely be an interesting scenario! I guess it is possible, since the Church would want to make out that it was the fulfillment of prophecies.

Incidentally, did you know that the Catholic Church actually believes that the reign during the "Holy" Roman Empire was the fulfillment of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and that they are living in the "little season" during which Satan is unleashed and eventually will attack "Jerusalem", which I presume they interpret to be the Church?

In other words, they expect to be attacked! I guess if they're already expecting it, relocating to Jerusalem would be a good PR move for them :)

Quote:
Isn't it the goal of the Bildercheeseburgers to return all of us cattle to the dark ages while they rule the earth? Are they not planning in secret meetings how to go about this, getting year-long visits from Satan himself every 28 years? (...the "Feast of the Beast", it's been happening all along)


Bildercheeseburgers :)

I don't know whether that is their specific motive, although they'd eventually want recruits for their eventual war at Har-Magedon. I'm still intrigued as to how their armies expect to fight God, without some geographical target to pinpoint.

Quote:
Is this not a most obvious "prophetic pattern"? :D


You know, last night I remembered another reason I'm not too keen on "prophetic patterns".

In Revelation 12, there is a war in heaven, in which Satan is cast down to the earth. As far as I can see, this can only happen once!

This is why I struggle with "prophetic patterns", "dual fulfillments" or whatever we want to call them... I can't see how Satan could be cast down in 66-70AD, and also again in the future! Does Satan somehow make it back up there, only to be cast down all over again? :confused:

I was reading something that Irenaeus said the other day. He said the reason Satan was allowed to remain in heaven at first, was because he was not at outright war with the holy ones before Christ, because he did not explicitly know of his own fate. (In fact, the only times Satan makes an explicit appearance in the Old Testament, is when he is making accusations, such as with Job).

However, when Christ came, and it was made explicit that Satan and his angels would be cast into the "everlasting fire" (Mat 25:41), then he had no reason other than to launch open war with God. He now knew he had nothing to lose, whereas before he was not so sure of his own fate.

That is why it makes sense to me that he was cast out somewhere between 66 and 70AD. Given that Satan was now at war, how likely is it that he would be allowed to remain in heaven for an additional 2,000 or so years?

Incidentally, re the "short period of time" that he knew he had, I think that refers to the fact that he knew he had been cast down within Daniel's 70th week (66-73AD), so he had this short window in which to attempt to crush the "seed".

This explains why Nero was burning the Christians at Rome, the Jewish Christians were fleeing into the wilderness (which is dramatically symbolized in Rev 12:13-17), and Jews were being slaughtered everywhere.

Can you imagine all of this taking place on earth, while Michael, the heavenly prince of the Jews, and his angels, are twiddling their thumbs in heaven? No, Satan had initiated the war in 33AD, and he was cast out shortly after - once and for all.
[/quote]

Hi e-magine

e-magine Wrote:
And if it is the "Taw" or (X) that is the mark by which we buy and sell, is this not our "mark", or signature that we usually use today, to buy or sell? And is not "Taw" or "X mark" where we get our English word,
"tick" = "credit" (17 century English), from where we get our word "ticket", = licence to buy or enter)?
If we don't use our literal signature to buy, we often use our "number", credit card.
Perhaps the fulfillment will be just that, a state issued card or electronic device authorizing a person.


That's an interesting observation. One thing I'd suggest is that, when we buy or sell using something in which we need to sign, we leave our mark. Similarly, with credit cards. The bank issues the card number, but the number's meaning is simply associated with a bank or credit account assigned to us.

However, in Rev 13, nobody can buy or sell without the beast's mark, or the beast's number (or the name of the beast).

In other words, for there to be a parallel, it would be like all of us here having the same account number - the beast's (666); or signing our checks with the beast's mark, not ours.

A "a state issued card or electronic device authorizing a person" could make it easier to bring about what's described in Rev 13, but it would also need one essential ingredient - compulsory worship.

I'd say that Nazi Germany pretty much had all of the components of a "beast" system: support by the Church, worship of the State and restriction of trade to those who accepted its mark.

I find it amazing that, despite their faulty interpretation of prophecy, Jehovah's Witnesses were discerning enough to realize that blind obedience to Hitler was just plain wrong. It is to their credit, therefore, that JWs went to the camps, while the Church supported Hitler and even blessed his arms!

So microchips, tattoos or whatever are not actually necessary for the creation of a "beast" system. I guess if a person believes it will be global, then I can see why technology would be useful.

It wouldn't totally surprise me if Satan attempted some kind of "final push", before he gets abyssed.

:coffee:

Hi there:

I wouldn't think the MARK is religious.. The battle in Revelation appears to be political.. as beasts are always political.. (note Dan. 8).
That being said, the mark has to be a political mark. (this coincides with the WT's idea of the beast). Could the mark be a check in the voting booth?
Hi NewTruth

NewTruth Wrote:
I wouldn't think the MARK is religious.. The battle in Revelation appears to be political.. as beasts are always political.. (note Dan. 8).
That being said, the mark has to be a political mark. (this coincides with the WT's idea of the beast). Could the mark be a check in the voting booth? [/size][/color]


Are you sure? I get the impression when reading about the 2nd beast that there is a distinctly religious element to it...

(a) Two horns "like a lamb" (who else in Rev is a "lamb"?)

(b) "Performs great signs" (exactly what false prophets and Christs do in Mat 24:24)

© "Misleads" because of those signs (isn't that what a false prophet does?)

Remember, the Papacy was and is political. At one time, it actually had a physical kingdom (called the Papal kingdom), and even today, Vatican City is a state, has observer status at the UN, and has ambassadors just as a state has.

The 2nd wild beast is called the "false prophet" in Rev 16:13. False prophets, by definition, are religious!

The UK/US does not qualify as this "false prophet" because, while I understand that some of its leaders do claim to be Christian, I've never seen them claim the authority of a prophet, no matter how the WT tries to spin this.

On the other hand, the Roman Pope most definitely makes the claim to be essentially Christ On Earth. He is called the Holy Father, with titles such as the Vicar Of Christ [vice-Christ], and Pontifex Maximus.

If people knew just what the Papacy claimed to itself, they would realize just how blasphemous it all was. It is a false Christ and false prophet par excellence.

This is why I find all this talk about a future Maitreya type "Antichrist" quite amusing. The most effective antichrist is one who substitutes for Christ, with the purpose of misleading., i.e. a false Christ.

Such false Christs as Maitreya are mere pale shadows. The Papacy can claim the lineage of Peter (which it thinks was given to it by Jesus himself), and the keys of the kingdom given to Peter.

No other false Christ can ever came that level of "credibility". None.

Admittedly the Muslims attempt to use certain scriptures to imply that Jesus was hinting at the coming of Mohammed, but the Papacy can actually trace its origins back to the 1st century, giving it much more "credibility" with the masses.

:coffeeread:

I can see your point as well.. really. The reason, I see your point is because I think the ruler of Babylon is the wild beast.. who turns on her and destroys her.. I think Babylon is the unfaithful woman of Jehovah.. who fornicated and to me, Babylon is anti-typical Jerusalem. Thing is.. beast are always rulers and kings of countries. And I totally agree.. this ruler (the beast) has strong religious elements to it..

In America... it was the religious right wing that got Bush elected, as they believed he was our good christian leader.. This has proved to be false, and thus 'a false prophet'.. has emerged. He and Blair, a 2 headed beast.. appeared like a lamb.. but were really a dragon..

:drinking:
I don't believe the mark will actually be a mark, but a belief system, that ALL must believe, and I believe that the belief will be the God dishonoring doctrine of the trinity.

RR
Hi RR

RR144 Wrote:
I don't believe the mark will actually be a mark, but a belief system, that ALL must believe, and I believe that the belief will be the God dishonoring doctrine of the trinity.


Could you give me a brief outline of how you see that playing out, and who you (and/or Bible Students) see as the 1st and 2nd wild beasts? Cheers!

This is the mark I was shown in all my visions. They had it on their foreheads, and the military was wearing it on their uniforms.

http://www.riotacts.com/fire/maltesecross.html

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/smom).html

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/P...n_ch20.htm
The sign or mark of the beast (Papacy) is indeed the cross.

The understanding of Revelation 13 has to take the reign of Henry the Eighth in England, that is where it happened. The thing in their hand was a license to preach for the priests and a paper for the common man showing tat he had taken the oath of praymenire that the head of the Church in England was King Henry.

The Church which was wounded unto death was the Smyrna period of the Church.

Revelation 17:9, 10, 11.
1- Babylon
2- Medo-Persia
3- Greece
4- Pagan Rome
5- Papal Rome
6- England 666
7- USA
8- EU #4 returned

Two Horns is England and Ireland in the 16th century.

False Prophet is the World Council of Churches

Image of the Beast is England under Henry after he declared his headship of the Church. He made an mage or duplicated the beast in its arrangements. State -Church
Dragon is Emperor of Rman Empire headquarted in Constaninople. 539AD
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