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A perspective on the identity of the fourth beast of Daniel’s prophecy


Daniel 7:7-8
7 “After this I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! a fourth beast, fearsome and terrible and unusually strong. And it had teeth of iron, big ones. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it was treading down with its feet. And it was something different from all the [other] beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns. 8 I kept on considering the horns, and, look! another horn, a small one, came up in among them, and there were three of the first horns that were plucked up from before it. And, look! there were eyes like the eyes of a man in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking grandiose things.

In what way is the fourth beast “something different from all the [other] beasts that were prior to it”? I propose that the key to figuring out the identity of this unusual 4th beast is connected with the details of how this beast is pictured - and that these details gives a clue to its real identity.

Details of the fourth beast
Per Daniel’s description the first three beasts are seen as being visibly appearing “like” composites of natural animals such as lions, bears, eagles, leopards, etc. But the fourth beast is not said to look like any particular animal, described as being “something different” with horns and being “unusually strong”. So it is a beast, but an un-natural beast. The first three beasts are natural kingdoms of the earth, but this fourth beast is “different” to the point where Daniel takes special note.

Daniel 7:19
19 “Then it was that I desired to make certain concerning the fourth beast, which proved to be different from all the others, extraordinarily fearsome, the teeth of which were of iron and the claws of which were of copper, which was devouring [and] crushing, and which was treading down even what was left with its feet; “

The teeth of the 4th beast, “teeth of iron”, and the claws of copper do not represent naturally occurring animal teeth and claws. Iron and copper are metals that mankind casts and uses to build things – things like military weapons - such as swords and spears. But since the “iron teeth” and copper claws are seen as part of a beastlike entity this gives a clue that this beast is like the previous three, but that it has extreme military power in some non-normal non-traditional military sense that the previous three beasts did not possess. This beast is truly special.

All the major world powers of history used similar methods of doing large scale battle: siege engines, trebuchets (giant slingshots), chariots and archers, sword and spearmen, ships with battering rams, etc. etc. No ancient world power can be said to have been “different” in the way they did battle – they all used the same type of military gear. So one way that the fourth beast is different must be about the kind of military gear used by this beast. This beast does not employ military gear typical to world empires of past times – but military gear of a futuristic type – hi tech and dominant in nature – that makes this beast truly unlike any of the military world powers of the past.

The “small horn”

Daniel 7:8
8 I kept on considering the horns, and, look! another horn, a small one, came up in among them, and there were three of the first horns that were plucked up from before it. And, look! there were eyes like the eyes of a man in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking grandiose things.

What is the meaning behind having a “small horn” with eyes and a mouth? The fourth beast starts out with ten horns but this small horn seems to have the power over this fourth beast since the small horn has eyes of a man and can talk – even “grandiose things”. Animals do not talk so this beast has something supernatural behind it that makes it appear that it is talking. Having the eyes of a man makes this beast able to “see” things that beasts are not able to “see”: This beast has long range strategic and tactical planning abilities, with the public "face" and resources to promote its grandiose global agenda in the mainstream media machine.

So the fourth beast, while physically very powerful like the rest of the beasts in the sense of having beastlike brute force ability to kill, has the special powers of sight and speech that means it has the shrewd intelligence like that of a human. But since beasts do not talk or reason the ability to do so must come from demonic supernatural backing, yet the voice is delivered through a human source, being “like a man” in appearance. The fourth beast has ten horns, three of which are “plucked up” apparently by this “small horn”. So this small horn appears to dominate the fourth beast. Why is this horn “small”? It’s small, yet it has “the appearance of which was bigger than that of its fellows” (Daniel 7:20) - because it’s real power does not come through purely brute force like the rest of the beasts. This small horn is something of an image, a representation of something far bigger.

The horn, being “small”, must mean that it’s a behind the scenes power structure, not obvious like the other remaining seven horns – yet its dominant and somehow controls the other horns of the beast and the fourth beast in its entirety. It appears that the larger seven horns are the “front” organizations of the fourth beast’s real power structure - while the real power of it, the small horn, remains behind the scenes - until the time is right to reveal itself.


v r

Because “the holy ones of the Supreme One” never took “possession of the kingdom itself” at any time in past history, the ultimate fourth beast of Daniel cannot have been ancient Rome. Imperial Rome faded away and fragmented as a centralized militaristic world power - it was never judged by the heavenly Court and had its rulership removed by divine providence. The outworking of the fourth beast’s “small horn” has to be yet future. There is an obvious connection with its existence – and the existence of a conflict with “the holy ones” here on the earth - and with the final judgment of the nation system in opposition to God here on the earth per Daniel 2:44-45. In the vision of Daniel the “small horn” is granted domination of the holy ones for three and one half times, which is an obvious connection to the book of Revelation’s timeline of the same length and the subjugation of the holy ones.

The “small horn” in some way “will intend to change times and law” which connects with the beast image of Revelation where no one on the earth will be able to buy or sell without the beast mark, where the beast has authority to kill anyone who will not worship it. Nothing like this has ever happened in the past on a global scale. The power of any prior world empire was never global and all consuming like what is being shown to Daniel in the series of visions he has.

Its no wonder Daniel was shocked and stunned into a stupor.

Daniel 7:28
28 ... As for me, Daniel, my own thoughts kept frightening me a great deal, so that my very complexion changed in me; but the matter itself I kept in my own heart.”

Daniel 7:21-22
21 “I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.

Daniel 7:25-26
25 And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. 26 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally.


v r

The “small horn” as seen in Daniel 8

Two years later Daniel has a second vision with a “small horn” character in it. Again the small horn emerges from a larger horn, this time from one of the four horns on the head of a male he-goat which was one of Alexander the Great’s four generals that took over the Greek empire after Alexander’s death.

There are similarities in the details in this version of the “small horn” vision in that it “puts on great airs” similar to the small horn of Daniel 7 that “speaks grandiose things”.

Daniel 8:9-12
9 And out of one of them there came forth another horn, a small one, and it kept getting very much greater toward the south and toward the sunrising and toward the Decoration. 10 And it kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens, so that it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it went trampling them down. 11 And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.


Are these two “small horns” the same entity - being shown to Daniel in different levels of detail? Daniel is approached by the angel Gabriel for clarification on the timeframe of this vision and provides more cryptic detail.

Daniel 8:16-19
“Ga´bri•el, make that one there understand the thing seen.” 17 So he came beside where I was standing, but when he came I got terrified so that I fell upon my face. And he proceeded to say to me: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end.” 18 And while he was speaking with me, I had become fast asleep on my face on the earth. So he touched me and made me stand up where I had been standing. 19 And he went on to say: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end.

“The time of the end”, “the final part of the days” is the timeframe of this vision. In verse 23 the “small horn” now appears to be described as “a king fierce in countenance”. This king understands “ambiguous sayings” and employs power that was not of its own making. The traditional beastlike empires of the past had to use brute force to keep their empires in line which is why they were able to fall from the use of similar but greater brute force. This is why the small horn, the king fierce in countenance, cannot be brought down by traditional means since it uses different tactics with its diabolically clever and far seeing eyes and mouth speaking grandiose things - like setting up an interlocked global financial system impossible to get around, that will eventually control the very food supply through genetically engineered seeds (GMO’s - genetically modified organisms). Engineered false fuel and food shortages, credit crunches, creating and funding both sides of international wars that keep the tax paying public forever in debt with massive national debt levels that have to be paid never ending interest to the money masters of the global financial system. Hi-tech means of manipulations such as mind control and propaganda through the global media machine “throws truth to the earth” in deceiving the masses in support of the globalist agenda.

Daniel 8:21-22
21 And the hairy he-goat [stands for] the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it [stands for] the first king. 22 And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from [his] nation that will stand up, but not with his power."

This king, like the “small horn” version of the previous vision, has dealings with “holy ones” in bringing them to ruin. He puts on great airs and stands up against the Prince of princes and then gets brought to ruin “without hand” such as is described in Daniel 2:44-45.

Daniel 8:23-25
23 “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. 24 And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of [the] holy ones. 25 And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken.

The “small horn” of Daniel 7 and 8 are the same horn, and the king of fierce countenance is the same entity as the “small horn”. Since the connectives match up with the king of fierce countenance, the small horn, the fourth beast, and the beast image of Revelation – these are all describing the same yet future entity that will one day have global domination – Satanic global totalitarian iron-fisted dictatorship over the entire globe. This beast like entity will be the one that goes up against the Lamb Jesus Christ in the battle of Armageddon and will be forever destroyed with the “stone cut not with hands” that Daniel saw - that toppled the immense image - that also represents the eventual global beastlike government over mankind.

I believe that Daniel was being shown the same beastlike coming NWO totalitarian governmental entity in all the visions. Who is it? Like the beast of Revelation that emerges from the sea, it will be clearly recognizable when it finally gets here. But even now there should be tracks in the sand via world events that help us see it coming thus in my view the need to consider the unimaginable angles that will help us truly "see" when Daniel's prophecy is unlocked in the time of the end - which may be happening right now - for those that are able to "see".

Daniel 12:3
3 “And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.


v r

Hi veritas

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I tend to agree that the visions of Daniel 7 and 8 are connected, but I still have many problems with your interpretation.

(A) Daniel 2:30 and Luke 2:1 show that entire planet not always meant.

According to the Bible, the copper 3rd kingdom (which I think you'd agree was Alexandar's empire) will "rule over the whole earth" (Daniel 2:30)

However, Alexandar did not literally rule over every square inch of the planet, so the Bible must be using it in a relative sense.

We have another example in Luke: "Now in those days a decree went forth from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered." (Luke 2:1)

However, I doubt Augustus' decree would have carried much weight in inhabited places far away from the Roman empire. So clearly "all the inhabited earth" or "over the whole earth" does not always have to mean the whole planet.

So when the 4th beast "devours the whole earth", it does not have to mean the whole planet, just as Alexander's kingdom did not rule over the whole planet, even though the account says the 3rd kingdom will "rule over the whole earth".

(B) The history of the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire is consistent with the vision.

You say:

Imperial Rome "fragmented" indeed, as the prophecy states: "Out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up." In other words, the Roman empire fragmented into "ten kings"!

Then, a "little horn" rose up and defeated three of those kingdoms. Historically, this is called the Papal kingdom, with its seat at Rome.

The Papal kingdom did indeed act in a way that you correctly attribute to the "little horn" - it persecuted and warred with the holy ones (for literally hundreds of years). You only need to read a history book about the Crusades, Inquistiions, burnings at the stake etc that were implemented against all who made themselves enemies of the Pope or the Church.

Yet it often acted "behind the scenes" as you say - using the secular "ten kings" power. (In fact, the "Holy" Roman Empire was fashioned in the image of the Roman Empire, but with the Pope at its head - an empire that lasted for 1,000 years.)

You're right that this has never been judged - I agree, that is future.

© The ordering of the beasts

I still think you are making a massive historical leap. To say that the 1st beast is Babylon, the 2nd is Medo-Persia, the 3rd is Greece and the 4th is the NWO is a major leap of history.

Why would the angel report on Medo-Persia and Greece, but skip over the power that would have the biggest effect on Daniel's people the Jews - namely, the Romans? It was, after all, the Romans who destroyed their Temple and city, and it was the Romans who put the Messiah to death, along with many tens of thousands of Christians and Jews?

Besides, the 4th kingdom of "iron" according to Daniel 2 eventually gets divided, and gets mixed in with molded clay - you yourself said, "Imperial Rome faded away and fragmented as a centralized militaristic world power" - and this fits in perfectly with the iron going to iron and clay, in 10 toes.

(D) Was the Roman empire special?

The fourth beast is "special", I agree... but then, this still needs to be taken in context.

The 4th beast is "unusually strong" compared to the previous beasts. By comparison with the Roman empire, the previous empires looked weak - Alexander's only lasting until his death!

That it had "teeth of iron" was probably simply to relate it to the Daniel 2 vision, the "iron" 4th kingdom which would follow the 3rd Greek kingdom. (Historically, the Roman empire followed the Greek empire.)

It was "something different from all the other beasts that were prior to it". In other words, it only has to be different from the Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires.

I'd suggest that the Roman empire had a different ruling structure to anything before it. While Caesar was ultimately in charge, there were many local kings (i.e. King Herod), and a Senate which had some legislative authority.

Plus, the latter part of the Roman kingdom (in the "Holy" Roman Empire) was different again. This time, the Pope was ultimate authority (and the mouthpiece of God), with the Church the local authority.

.

At one point I used to believe the "little horn" was the USA. After all, doesn't have the "all-seeing eye" on its Great Seal (and one-dollar bill)? However, historically the Papal power fits the identity of the "little horn" much better. Many of the early colonists to America were well aware of the identity of Babylon, which their Geneva Bible pretty much spelled out.

Brother Russell also had a good understanding of this. Unfortunately, JWs were robbed of this understanding, when they later replaced the "little horn" with Anglo-America. They would do well to re-evaluate Russell's original interpretation.

Most agree that the scope of Armageddon will be global in nature, that the final conflagration between the forces of Evil and Good will happen everywhere on the planet, at the same time – and no one escapes being affected. Revelation uses the term “harvest of the earth”.

Revelation 14:14-16
14 And I saw, and, look! a white cloud, and upon the cloud someone seated like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel emerged from the temple [sanctuary], crying with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: “Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is thoroughly ripe.” 16 And the one seated on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

It’s difficult to imagine that the God of prophecy would not give mankind some sort of advance “heads up” about something of that magnitude. In the case of ancient Israel God sent the prophets to warn them of the consequences if they did not straighten up – but Israel and Jerusalem were mere drops in a bucket in comparison to the evident coming confrontation between spirit forces invisible to our eyes – and the earthly agents associated with each side. Where then is the “heads up”?

In my mind this demands a way different view of the cryptic books of Daniel and Revelation. We should be looking at these books with the cosmic big picture in mind. While no doubt the beasts of Daniel were real empires that played a role in real history there is just too much detail that cannot be explained with the literal explanations. These beasts, especially the fourth beast that morphed out of ancient Rome, represent a composite picture representing something far greater – something literally global in nature. If we try to look at these beasts from a purely historical standpoint then we will not be able to see or understand the bigger picture that I believe was embroidered into Daniel’s prophecy to be seen.

One point to keep in mind is that an event on the scale of an Armageddon cannot happen in a vacuum – there have to be the wheels grinding, the causal factors taking place as the lead-in to such an event happening. Permanent judgment and consignment to the Lake of Fire is an extreme action to take and the righteous Almighty God would never do that on some arbitrary rule of law. It’s clear in Revelation that despite even the dumping of painful plagues upon persons they refuse to repent. People prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that they want the beast’s rule of the planet and accept its mark. They are judged accordingly as persons who will never change their minds. The beast government at this time persecutes the holy ones still alive then with a purposeful mean spirit – because they hate God Almighty and everything he and the Son stand for. The beast government is purely Satanic in nature, and it had to have taken Satan and his earthly agents centuries of behind the scenes machinations to set it up to the point that it could fully prove its own evil works such that God could fairly judge and destroy it.

In my view Daniel and Revelation presents the cryptic picture of how it all unfolds.


v r

Hi veritas

I agree that the scope of Har-Magedon may be global in nature. However, we must surely also take into account other scriptures that might bear on these issues.

Joel 3 also talks about a harvest and a winepress that has become full. It says: "Let the nations be aroused and come up to the low plain of Jehoshaphat; for there I shall sit in order to judge all the nations round about." (Joel 3:12)

If we go back a few verses to verse 11, it is clear Jehovah is gathering the nations round about Judah and Jerusalem. (See 3:1 also.)

So it could be argued that this is Har-Magedon, when God judges the nations round about for their treatment of Israel.

I guess it depends upon your point of view of Har-Magedon. I suggest that it is an attack primarily centred on Israel, which is why John specifies [/i]"in Hebrew Har-Magedon.[/i] (What is the relevance of the "in Hebrew" part, if Har-Magedon is not tied to Israel?)

If it is to do with Israel, then we get a "heads up" every day in the news, with individuals and nations wanting to wipe out Israel. (How many terrorist organizations are right on Israel's borders right now?)

That is the point of Joel 3, which talks about the days "when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem", after the "great and fear inspiring day" talked about in chapter 2, which happened in the 1st century, as confirmed by Peter. (Acts 2:14-21) Jehovah did not restore Judah and Jerusalem until 1948 and 1967. (Which are, in themselves, signs as to where we are in the stream of time.)

I'd suggest that they can be explained with the literal explanations (at least Daniel) if we carefully examine history. I think the only reason most people accept a Futuristic explanation is because they lack a good knowledge of history. When I was doing my Revelation verse by verse thread, I was forced to examine some of the history in Josephus (and other sources), and I was amazed at how much history matched with Daniel and Revelation.

I am not in any way claiming any special "gifts", I'm simply saying I was forced to do my "homework", and found many events in history that match very well with the prophecies. Ask 100 Christians to describe the events leading up to the Jewish rebellion of 66AD, for instance, and most will not know WHY the Jews rebelled.

Ask them what the Antichrist will do, however, and most will have an answer. The fact is, Christians need to brush up on HISTORY, because they will almost certainly be amazed by what they learn

This is a comment NOT directed at you specifically, by the way. I'm just appealing to all Christians to take more of an interest in Jewish and Christian HISTORY. For instance, compare the "four winds" of Revelation to the guy who was going round Jerusalem, before it was destroyed, issuing woes from the "four winds", as reported by Josephus... it's very eye-opening!

On the contrary, I'd suggest that only by looking at them historically, can we understand the "bigger picture" and see how Jehovah has been fulfilling prophecy over the past 2,000 years, right under our noses.

Well, I don't think it takes Satan anywhere near that long. It took him just 30 years from Christ's death to produce Nero, who burned Christians in the Vatican gardens, and just a few more decades to create a State that essentially persecuted and killed Christians throughout the Roman empire. (I believe the first wild beast of Revelation was the pagan Roman empire.)

Perhaps you are right. All I'm saying is they're not so cryptic - that it's about two cities, Rome (as symbolized by Babylon) and Jerusalem (as symbolized by Zion), and the prophecies have been unfolding over the past 2,000 years. Daniel focused mainly on Jerusalem, and Revelation focuses initially on Jerusalem and then on "Babylon" (Rome).

"I'd suggest that they can be explained with the literal explanations (at least Daniel) if we carefully examine history. I think the only reason most people accept a Futuristic explanation is because they lack a good knowledge of history. When I was doing my Revelation verse by verse thread, I was forced to examine some of the history in Josephus (and other sources), and I was amazed at how much history matched with Daniel and Revelation."

First off, thank you both for your input.

I´ve read some history books and Josephus´s account "The Jewish wars." After I read Interpretum´s thread "Revelation; chapter by chapter", I had to admit that he has presented the most compeling explanation on the fulfillment of the book of Revelation I ever read. Very revealing.



AR

“The time of the end”, “the final part of the days” is the timeframe of this vision. In verse 23 the “small horn” now appears to be described as “a king fierce in countenance”. This king understands “ambiguous sayings” and employs power that was not of its own making. The traditional beastlike empires of the past had to use brute force to keep their empires in line which is why they were able to fall from the use of similar but greater brute force. This is why the small horn, the king fierce in countenance, cannot be brought down by traditional means since it uses different tactics with its diabolically clever and far seeing eyes and mouth speaking grandiose things - like setting up an interlocked global financial system impossible to get around, that will eventually control the very food supply through genetically engineered seeds (GMO’s - genetically modified organisms). Engineered false fuel and food shortages, credit crunches, creating and funding both sides of international wars that keep the tax paying public forever in debt with massive national debt levels that have to be paid never ending interest to the money masters of the global financial system. Hi-tech means of manipulations such as mind control and propaganda through the global media machine “throws truth to the earth” in deceiving the masses in support of the globalist agenda.

Just curious Veritas. Have you watched this video. The Money Changers. If not take a look .



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...256183936#

Jake

Yes I have. The Money Masters is a must watch for persons looking to connect the dots with Bible prophecy and the outworking of how Satan's system achieves global domination. Thanks for mentioning this pertinent film - its well worth the time to watch.

v r

The Money Masters.......Brilliant watching.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...256183936#

Your question here is a very good one: Why name off Medo-Persia and Greece, yet leave out Rome? Why not just name Rome too while they were at it? This oddity is exactly part of the reason why the prophecy to me seems peculiar in what it doesn't say, and I think is a reason to indicate that there IS a big jump in time being cryptically coded into this prophecy.

Consider: If the “small horn” of Daniel 7 and the “king of fierce countenance” of Daniel 8 are the same entity, and “the final part of their kingdom” relates back to Daniel 2:44, then the “And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken.” - certainly appears to be talking about the end of man ruled governments on the earth.

44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms. Daniel 2:44

23 “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. 24 And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of [the] holy ones. 25 And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken. Daniel 8:23-25

I’ve read these sections of Daniel probably hundreds of times by now and it just feels like it jumps in and out of talking about the chain of regular kingdoms, and talking about a greater context of actual global domination by an entity much larger than the kingdoms of old were ever able to achieve. The huge image of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream I believe represents the end result, the global all encompassing beast image of Revelation, that the book of Daniel itself recasts into various cryptic terms such as little horn etc. - as a way to “make secret the words” as the angel told Daniel, “until the time of the end”.

At some point, do the “words” get revealed to “the ones having insight.” ?



v r

An additional point in Daniel as to why I think the 4th beast (in its ultimate end-times incarnation as the NWO) is not Rome - is regards the summary lineup of the kings in Daniel 8.

Consider if there is a “skip” in time and meaning between the 3rd beast and the 4th:

Beast 1
(not mentioned)

Beast 2
“The ram that you saw possessing the two horns [stands for] the kings of Me´di•a and Persia.” Daniel 8:20

Beast 3
21 And the hairy he-goat [stands for] the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it [stands for] the first king. 22 And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from [his] nation that will stand up, but not with his power.” Daniel 8:21-22

Beast 4 (?)
23 “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. 24 And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of [the] holy ones. 25 And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken.” Daniel 8:23-25

Notice vs. 25 from Daniel 8: "And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken." Does this connect to Daniel 2:45? "forasmuch as you beheld that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and [that] it crushed the iron, the copper, the molded clay, the silver and the gold." Daniel 2:45

Summary
The “he” of Daniel 8, the “king of fierce countenance”, stands up against the Prince of princes and is “broken” – “without hand”. Daniel 2:45 uses similar language in describing the fall of the composite image, being destroyed by the “stone...cut not with hands”, which I feel certain is describing the combined global totalitarian NWO in its final form – which is yet future. The act of “he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of [the] holy ones” appears also to connect to Revelation 11 where the two witnesses are killed, as well as use of the term “time times and half a time”period seen in both Revelation and Daniel.

So the cryptic language of Daniel appears to be skipping time zones in history from the ancient past into the time of the end with regards to the 4th beast. And the point that the angel frequently tells Daniel the vision is for the time of the end I think certainly lends weight to this theory. While ancient Rome no doubt was a model for the NWO in how it operated with an iron-like hand and exerts influence into modern times per the British Empire, which even now rules the world through financial means via the City of London and the interconnected global banking system run by the elite globalists. We can also link the manner of global lock that the coming beast image uses, which is at least an economic lock, whereby no one can buy or sell without the mark of the beast.


v r

Hi veritas

Good to speak to you again

Well, I'd suggest there is a simpler explanation as to why Rome wasn't named.

Medo-Persia freed the Jews, and treated them pretty well... and so did the Greeks. In contrast, the Romans destroyed the Jewish holy city and Temple. It also persecuted the Christians for not accepting emperor worship.

Think how much worse this mistreatment of Jews and Christians might have been, if their book of Daniel had also foretold plainly that their kingdom was going to be crushed and ended, and the holy ones to take possession of it! This would have given the Roman authorities an even greater excuse to persecute both Christians and Jews.

By not naming Rome, it would at least require a certain amount of effort on the part of the authorities to deduce this, and put them at less risk of being accused of being a danger to the State. Of course, they were already at risk, simply by virtue of being Christians, but at least by not naming Rome, Daniel was sparing them from additional reasons for persecution.

We see something similar in Revelation 13, where the beast is not named, but we're given the number of the beast. John's audience would have been familiar with the concept that, in Hebrew and Greek, letters were also used for numbers... and Iranaeus points out that LATEINOS (the Latins) equated to 666 and was a "most probable" solution to this riddle... this kingdom not being named (just as in Daniel), but its number being given. ("Romans" in Hebrew also sums to 666 in its feminine form).

The simplest explanation would be to hide this identification from the Roman authorities, while the correct interpretation would be passed through word-of-mouth.

Perhaps, but there are two assumptions here... that they are the same entity, and that "the final part of their kingdom" is referring to the end of man ruled governments on earth.

For Daniel 8, I think we need to be careful with the phrase, "the final part of their kingdom" and put it in the context of the vision itself.

The previous verse says, "And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from [his] nation that will stand up, but not with his power."

So to me, it's clear that it is referring to the four kingdoms that arise out of Alexander the Great's Greek empire. We know from Daniel 11 that the two principle players are Syria (the "king of the north") and Alexandria ("king of the south"), so I'd suggest it's talking about the final part of their kingdom.

Personally, I think the king being described here is Nero, who as Roman emperor was master of both Syria and Alexandria at that time, who brought the holy ones to ruin, stood up against the Prince of princes, and was broken without hand. This also corresponds with a similar description of him and his actions in Daniel 11:32-44).

As for the "small horn" of Daniel 7, it sometimes appears to be it's the same entity, but my gut feeling is that it isn't. For a start, it doesn't seem to share quite the same fate as the king in Daniel 7... this one's body is destroyed and thrown into the burning fire.

I personally think this "small horn" represents the Papal kingdom, which arose out of the Roman empire, that defeated 3 rival kingdoms, and that wore down the holy ones for a "time, times and half a time".

This also corresponds with John's second wild beast, which gives us further details, such as the image it sets up of the former beast (the "Holy" Roman Empire), and it's quasi-Christian nature (looking like a lamb). This also fits with 666 = LATEINOS, because it is a continuation of the Roman empire but in spiritual form, with the city of Rome sitting on top of both.

I certainly understand how you feel about these scriptures, and their epic nature.

The problem is, some like to use the concept that we need insight, to mean that their private interpretation of scripture is right, that they therefore must have a special channel to God because others can't see what they see. (The Watchtower Society's special... ahem, insights... into prophecy, being the perfect example.)

I think God has already revealed to us the meaning of most of the prophecies in the Bible, so it's simply a question of piecing together the interpretation GOD or CHRIST gives us.

A good example is the "disgusting thing that causes desolation". The 1st century rabbis applied those passages of Daniel to the desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes back around 167BC... but Jesus was basically telling his disciples... they are wrong in their interpretation, and the "disgusting thing" was yet future (from their perspective).

And Luke then gives us the explicit interpretation... that it would be the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.

All we then need to do to understand Daniel is take Jesus' interpretation, plug it into Daniel's prophecies, and voila! Work forwards or backwards as necessary.

But instead, we like to say... ahhhh... yes, Jesus... but you must also have been talking about another great tribulation, disgusting thing, etc etc... in the future.... right, Jesus?

That is when it becomes a private interpretation... because nowhere does Jesus say that it applies twice, or partially, or anything like that.

A second example is the interpretation many have of Babylon the Great. The angel tells us what it is, but for some reason, humans like to take what the angel says, and change it again!

"The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."

Yes... got that, angel... waters mean peoples, crowds, nations and tongues... great. What about the woman?

"And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

Ummm... ok, angel... but it's not a literal city, surely... so... ummm... what else could we define as a city. Oh yes, let's call it... a world empire... I know, a world empire of false religion!

I am fully aware of all the reasoning that goes behind this, but it is a private interpretation.

The angel tells us it is the great CITY... we're looking for a CITY... like Mexico City is a City. A world empire is not a city! (But a city like, ooooh, I don't know... Rome... IS a city, was THE great city, was known as "the city of the seven hills", had 5 fallen founding Caesars and one that "is" at the time, and ruled over the kings of the earth when John was given the vision... just as Nebuchadnezzar did in Daniel's vision.)

My point is, God has already revealed the meaning of the prophecies to those with insight... those with insight were the Christians.

They knew all this You don't think those 1st century Christians interpreted Babylon the Great to be "the world empire of false religion", or the scarlet coloured wild beast to be the UN... do you?

(But some say... Ah, Jesus wasn't writing to them... he skipped them, and was really writing to us, conveniently.)

No, they were free of all the doctrinal dross that has since accumulated over the centuries... they almost certainly (and I believe correctly) interpreted the first wild beast to be the Roman empire, with the woman who sits on top as Rome! (The only thing they wouldn't have known was the second wild beast... but I'm sure they were happy to wait to find out what it would be.)

Most of the mystery was revealed to John... and it can be revealed to us, too... IF we remove the scales from our eyes and read it without all our theological preconceptions.

No matter how we apply Daniel and Revelation to the sacking of Jerusalem, there is wording in both books that shows there is more to be fulfilled. Michael has not stood up for God's people yet; the small stone has not become a mountain and Satan has not been abyssed.