I am in sort of a quandry here.
From what I understand, Mount Sinai was the holy place of the pre-muslim pagan god named "Sin" (thus the name Sin-ai). However, Yahweh vanquished this pagan god by overtaking its grounds when dealing with the Israelites and the ten commandments and all that. When Yahweh did this, the mountain then became the holy place for God's people.
What does this have to do with Christmas trees? Well, every year since my df'ing four years ago, my hubby has been putting up a Christmas tree. I don't like the tree because of it's paganistic roots, I feel it is an affront to Yahweh and His Christ. Although I don't argue with my husband about it (since he is the head of the house), I do leave it all up to him to deal with putting it up and taking it down. Pretty soon, he will be bringing out the tree again. Sigh.
So, even though this may seem like a stupid line of reasoning, I do wonder: If I were to cover it with Christian / Yahweh themed items, would that be similar to the above mentioned Sinai scenario? Would that be similar to God "Vanquishing" the pagan? I know this reasoning sounds weird, but I'm trying to figure out if there is something I can do to eliminate the offense to God and Christ.
Any thoughts?
Love,
Tami
:wave: Hey there Tami!
So, even though this may seem like a stupid line of reasoning, I do wonder: If I were to cover it with Christian / Yahweh themed items, would that be similar to the above mentioned Sinai scenario? Would that be similar to God "Vanquishing" the pagan? I know this reasoning sounds weird, but I'm trying to figure out if there is something I can do to eliminate the offense to God and Christ.
What "Christian/Yahweh themed items" are you talking about? Crosses, angels...golden tetragrametons?
Just my opinion - it seems this is what Christendom attempts to do with all the things borrowed from pagan sources - which is a lot.
However - I really don't think any 'thing' is offensive to God unless we are substituting it as our god in worship - so unless you're worshipping that tree... :no:
I'm in the same boat with you - but my hubby's too lazy to go to the trouble, lol! I don't decorate for Christmas at all - but I do put out my snowflake collection from December to March... or April, lol - whenever I get around to putting it all away. I'm just not much into 'decorating' I guess. I'm surprised that Chuck would press you on this, knowing how you feel that it's actually an affront to God. But he must have his reasons...
I know a lot of XJW's dive right into all they've "been missing" and especially revel in Christmas and all it's trimmings... I can commiserate to a point for those raised in 'the truth' and really understand their feelings, even though I disagree. I feel so strongly against it, not because of WT but because I did my own research and agreed with them. Now that I'm 'out', it doesn't change the results of that intense research for the truth on this matter. I actually have to tone down my disgust for the showy displays - my MIL makes up for my lack of decorations - they go whole-hog - and it turns my stomach, literally. So I ignore it - blinders on my eyes! Even so, my MIL drags me over to their tree to look at some new decoration every year - and I always have the same comment - "uh huh", nod, smile, shrug. It's important to her, and she thinks I'm missing something by not getting excited over the frills. I'm just trying to keep my perspective.
I was reading something last week - and I'm still looking for it for you - about how the church took Christ-mass as a replacement for the Jewish 'festival of lights' - which also corresponds with the pagan Saturnalia, the sun returning to lengthen the light of day. I wish I could find it now(I read so much stuff and don't remember where!), but they were also saying it was an old Jewish tradition of decorating with pine boughs and candles during their 'festival of lights'. I'll keep searching for that - I'd never heard of it before, and it may be made-up, I dunno!
I'll be back later, Tami - love you. :friends:
Willa
:peace:
It's not the things you do, its what's going on in you when you do them.
Everything not done in faith is done in sin. Personally, i put our tree up every year, adorn it with decorations and enjoy a festival to God in thanks for Jesus every year. I take delight in that season as I delight in God.
But if you are not in faith when you do it, if you're worried its sin or offensive to God then don't do it.
Some people can eat a banquet and praise God for the food. This is a wonderful act of thanksgiving for them. I can't do the same because of my binging and bulima problems, I couldn't eat in faith in that way.
Your relationship with God is a personal thing. There may come a point when God gives you some sort of revelation or sets you free concerning Christmas. Or not. It's no problem. Don't do something that makes your spirit groan.
You can't enjoy God's presence if you're confused or worrying about what is or isn't acceptable to God. Enjoy God's presence in faith, and let him slowly change everything about you in his time, in his way.
Lots of love XXXXXX
2 Kings 5:17-19
"And Naaman said, I ask of you, to allow to be given to your servant two mules which are beasts of burden of the earth, because your servant will never more offer burnt-offerings nor sacrifices to other gods, but only to Jehovah.
In this thing Jehovah pardon your servant please:
When my master goes to the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand, and I have to bow down in the house of Rimmon, when I do this, please Jehovah pardon your servant."
I think Naaman was forgiven, and who was Rimmon? Heard of him lately?
Obviously another passé god!
I love this poem, by Shelley,
http://poetry.eserver.org/ozymandias.txt
Don't worry about the small stuff Mel. Jehovah created evergreens, and if someone then wants to put silly things on them, so be it.
Had to add this:-
What "Christian/Yahweh themed items" are you talking about? Crosses, angels...golden tetragrametons?
:1st: :priest: LOL and a half.
In Denmark they hang Danish flags on the christmas tree and then dance round them.
Hmm??? Jehovah's creation, with strange additions.
vicky
In answer to Willa, hubby didn't make an argument of it. He simply went and bought the tree shortly after my df'ing. He knew from over the years how I felt about a Christmas tree in the first place, so I guess there wasn't a lot of conversation to be had regarding it. I just let him know (nicely, of course) that I wasn't going to be helping put it up or take it down.
In answer to everyone else:
I just can't get past the idea that the origination of the tree has everything to do with pagan deity worship. I mean, let me put it another way: I am not buddhist. So if I lived in a predominantly buddhist area, would I decorate a statue of buddha in my home in commemoration of Christ's birthday? No. And the evergreen tree is still worshipped by modern Druids and other new age-y groups, just as buddha is still worshipped. The evergreen tree isn't a "defunct" false god, really.
But on the other hand, since the pre-muslim god, Sin, was an actively worshipped deity at that time, and God still chose that one mountain out of all the other mountains in the area....I'm not sure what to make of that.
:scratchhead:
The bible says not to mix pagan stuff with true worship, as quoted at 2 Corinthians 6:14-18:
Do not keep company with those who have not faith: for what is there in common between righteousness and evil, or between light and dark?
2Co 6:15 And what agreement is there between Christ and the Evil One? or what part has one who has faith with one who has not?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement has the house of God with images? for we are a house of the living God; even as God has said, I will be living among them, and walking with them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people.
2Co 6:17 For which cause, Come out from among them, and be separate, says the Lord, and let no unclean thing come near you; and I will take you for myself,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father to you; and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord, the Ruler of all.
but this Sinai thing makes me wonder where the line for that is. Am I being too stuffy by rejecting the tree, am I taking that scripture to an extreme? Would putting nativity themed ornaments and stuff like that be in the same vein as the Sinai "incident"? And if it isn't in the same vein, then what is the difference?
I'm not trying to be obsessive about this, but this tree deal would be a whole lot easier to ignore if we didn't have kids in the house. Although we don't argue about it, the kids know our differing opinions about it and we get the same old questions each time. And this year, I'm not sure what to think. :questioning:
Maybe the question is what is an Idol and what is a false God.
because someone sacrafices chickens to appease a spirit does that make chickens unholy to eat?
really how do we know that even the meat we get in the food store hasn;t been part of some ritual? what about the food blessed by a rabi? is it ok?
pictures? rings? tatoo's ? ear peircing anyone? is it still a symbol of a slave? could be many are slaves to this system. and it's wants and desires. chasing after things to fit in and not stand out from the crowd so as to draw attention.
the funny thing about making people dress like they are going to a corporate job.. it makes you fit in more then it makes you stand out.
The clean cut look and well groomed has been the norm for hundreds of years maybe more. even roman soldiers kept the standard as far as i know. It was the beastly man John that stood out from what I remember.
Can our means of dress alone be an idol if we put to much emphasis on it?
Balance in all things is what I get from the scripts.
Alot has to do with when the scripts say that men use part of the tree to worship and part of it to warm themselves with fire. I think we may take for grantite how far we have come from the superstitious and naive ways of thinking.
when it is dark and gloomy outside and cold having some lights to chear us up seems like a good idea to me.
does it make them part and parcel of anything offensive to our Father?
David danced naked in the streets while playing an instrument. he seemed to be all out partying. seems like his wife was the only one offended unless I read it wrong.
our view of proper decorum may be off abit.
I haven't put up lights cause I am cheap and no kids. but i love those icicle lights and if I had the time would go for them.
just my few cents
I haven't put up lights cause I am cheap and no kids. but i love those icicle lights and if I had the time would go for them.
just my few cents
thats cool Td :drinking:
Maybe the question is what is an Idol and what is a false God.
Hmmmm...I do think that maybe that is the real question involved. You've made me think about this one.
The pre-Muslims revered Mount Sinai as special to their god. Yet when Yahweh stationed Himself there, the Israelites only worshipped Him, not the pre-Muslim god. Everything was okay between Yahweh and the Israelites. It wasn't until the Israelites decided to make a golden calf that things went awry, but even that didn't have anything to do with the mountain.
I think I get this:
Similarly, in India, rats are considered as belonging to the rat goddess Karni Mata (I used to have a Hindu online penpal). But that doesn't mean people who buy pet rats at the local pet store are honoring Karni Mata. Also, people who buy cats from the pet store aren't necessarily honoring the Egyptian goddess, Bast.
So in the same way, a person buying a Christmas tree isn't necessarily honoring a druid tree god. If you are using to honor Christ, then it is for Christ, just like Mount Sinai was used for honoring Yahweh, not Sin.
Am I getting this right, or am I rationalizing too much?:questioning:
"Am I getting this right, or am I rationalizing too much?:"
I think it is for you to decide that question.
With clever words and twisted thinking all that is good can become bad.
That is why we have to get to God's heart on evry matter. just my opionion.
he says stack the rock one on top of another and that is perfect we say cut the rocks into nice neat squares or rectangles and that is perfect.
HE says I LOVE you for who you are three eye's and two heads matter not to me listen to my words and my advice and all will be well with you.
We say who are you to tell me what to do I will do it my own way.
I want to be and look like evryone else to get their approval.
we have 2 choices in all things believe we are doing things to please God or doubt.
He correct's those whom he loves. Doubt seemed to come from Satan. I could be wrong.
Why are most people looking to another or others for the answers?
Seems to me because they doubt God will lead them to the right conclusion on their own.
If I want "christmas lights" I can have them. IF my sister thinks that I am worshipping Satan because I have them am I stumbling her?
IS it her lack of understanding that the lights mean nothing without the heart felt thought behind them to worship an inanimate object with no spirit?
I dare say the muslims HEART made the mountain holy to THEIR god.
and the Isrealites HEART made it holy to the TRUE GOD and Father of us all.
when God says we are a hard hearted people is it not our Mind that is hardend? if our will / heart and /mind are one we do what is in our heart/mind/will.
So an IDOL and a False God are what we fabricate in place of that which is real but unseen. the druids Worshiped the tree ( as far as I know). just like people worship cows. their mind is twisted at the moment.
And as for sacrafice INCENSE is EVIL too don't ya know?
we'll if you burn it with your HEARTS intent to worship some False god it is.
If ya just like the sweet smell then burn away.
we are to ADORE no one but GOD. so any thing that becomes a sole focal point in this world could just be taking the place of where our thoughts / Heart should be.
Again just my opionion on things.
Why are most people looking to another for the answers?
Seems to me because they doubt God will lead them to the right conclusion on their own.
It isn't that I doubt God....it's more like I doubt myself for coming to the right/wrong conclusion of what He is trying to tell me. Sometimes I tend to overthink things and I get in my own way. :headbang:
I dare say the muslims HEART made the mountain holy to THEIR god.
and the Isrealites HEART made it holy to the TRUE GOD and Father of us all... So an IDOL and a False God are what we fabricate in place of that which is real but unseen....we are to ADORE no one but GOD. so any thing that becomes a sole focal point in this world could just be taking the place of where our thoughts / Heart should be.
Yes, I agree with that. I guess it's pretty much in the same line of thinking regarding the cats and incense.
Again just my opinion on things.
It may be just your opinion, but you have helped me sort this out a bit. I appreciate your input, thank you!:giverose:
I am happy if you can be at peace with yourself.
No one answer fits for all people.
Pls don't take the comment and be on the defense
"because they doubt God will lead them to the right conclusion on their own"
"It isn't that I doubt God"
WE all have our doubts it is human nature. That is why God has HOPE for us he knows we can overcome our fears and our doubts.
And learn to trust him in a complete way.
We have been mislead in o so many ways from the time we are children.
I have had many learning experiences in this life that were very painfull mentally and physically. I could gather fear to myself and stop trying or I can look at them for what they are a learning experience and if I don't like them I try not to repeat them.
I am used to people saying I can't do without having ever tried.
or try and things don't work out the way they thought and think out it as a failure.
When in fact the oposite is true you can succed in things without getting the desired outcome.
So the doubt/fear thing is just a generalization not to be taken to heart but to be used as a measureing tool. as DO I completely trust God yet.
I know I fail with this issue. but he reminds me often.
Peace sis
:wave: Hey Tami -
The link that e-magine posted is the same article I read on another forum about a month ago - either it just refreshed my memory(that needs to be done about hourly) or my mind's playing tricks on me!:funnyface: nah...
I didn't mean to infer at all that you and hubby argued about it - I said "pressed", and we know all too well how to press our loved ones' buttons, don't we?(I know I do!)
I don't think you doubt God at all - I think you doubt yourself - we all do it when we admit "I could be wrong..." But in this instance, I don't think you have any reason to doubt the real hard truth you've dug-up over the years in your personal research - it's what we know so far. In the past I've appreciated all your research and particularly noted our common opinion of Christmas and holidays, so I know your view is strong, based on facts and not emotionally biased, and I agree. What I ASSumed was that Chuck held the same opinion - silly me! Lol! Even so, Wt doctrine is sometimes right - kinda like the lottery, someone has to hit the right number every week. So I was surprised by him going right out to get a Christmas tree without, it seems, the restraints of WT belief, while the true results of your years of research stands. But I think I misunderstood something - sorry! :redface:
I feel for your conflict sister, I really do - I have and still do go through it at times. Seems like new information can put more light on a subject you thought you'd already figured out... not only have I been there, I kinda live there... Here's a little of my background, and why my opinion is what it is...
I wasn't raised a Witness, so I remember holidays... Giving all that up didn't matter much to me because we were poor and Christmas, particularly, was an unintentional burden. We always got new pj's, socks and underwear!:thinking: lol. I remember getting my one baby doll, my one Barbie, and learning to sew at 8 yrs. old to clothe her - are kids today spoiled or what? Maybe if it'd been more lavish I would've missed it more? hehe
When I studied with Witnesses back in the early 80's, one thing I studied more than any other was the evolution of holidays and their roots. This expansive subject always just fascinated me - and kinda freaked me out... :insane: This was before PCs, so I read every single book 3 counties-worth of libraries had on the topic + the books I requested they 'borrow' from larger libraries, and laborously filled notebooks with quotes and exhaustive notes. I learned the truth, not only through JWs who piqued my interest, but from history, because at that time I didn't yet believe everything the WT said... That trust didn't take hold 'til the 90's, and had a large part to do with their stance on holidays, non-participance in war, rejection of trinity and hellfire - stuff I didn't believe, that the churches I'd attended did. So WT theology was closest to my own - it didn't happen that I chose them and then just decided to believe whatever they taught - I actually believed some of it before - it seemed like a natural next step, lol. Back to the point - I found, like you did, from my own historical research, that there is a ritual or secret symbolism for EVERYthing. There really is 'nothing new under the sun', just very old stuff dressed up in a fresh veneer. And it's why I'm an 'iconoclast' now. [ So there, I have my own personal label - "No Labels"!:D ]
I no longer have any family living close by, so my in-laws are my family now. One of their first responses after I announced my break with the WT was - lovingly - how much I'd been missed at all the holiday celebrations. Sadly, I'd actually missed the younger ones growing up during that time because I didn't go to the family birthday/Christmas/Easter/Thanksgiving gatherings. So I was expected to 'dive right in' and help with decorations and arrangements - and I think my in-laws hoped I'd start attending their church... and bring their son along.:dontknow: It was overwhelming just thinking about it, so I had to take a 'cushion period' off - I had to decide what was what, how I felt, what I still believed. I re-researched EVERYthing about holidays and read hundreds of x-Witnesses' reasonings for embracing the once unembraceable. I understand their reasonings - I understand how difficult it is with young children... but I'm not in that situation, so it's easier for me...
Just for me, of my own opinion, with the WT out of the picture - the truth of what I'd learned about Christmas, Easter and Halloween still remains. I've discovered people on the internet(who were never Witnesses) who also hold the same beliefs, having learned them from history's record. Personally, I don't think a Christmas tree has anything to do with Christ and can't in any way 'glorify' him. I have learned, historically, that the tree is revered in an idolatrous way, in place of, or as a symbol of, the real object of our worship and attention. It's the responsibility of the owner, as Christmas trees go, to purchase, lovingly and pains-takingly adorn and decorate, pay attention to it, care for and water it, stick it in the front window to be compared and appreciated by passers-by - then stand back and admire(adore) it - "Oh Tannenbaum". It's not Jesus' birthday - the whole thing is just backwards to me... but that's just me and I must be an old stick-in-the-mud... oh well... lol.
So my opinion and my advice is based on all that, and may not help you in your situation... but sweety you have to decide for yourself. God can take a mountain once not dedicated to His worship(that seems kinda funny to me - they're ALL HIS mountains to begin with, duh!) and make it pure for Himself. He can take one man and make him into an entire nation of His People - He can do anything He wants! I really don't see the correlation between what He did at Mt. Sinai and us somehow turning a Christmas tree - it is what it is - into something else. BUT - we each have to decide for ourselves and we each have our own reasons for what and how we think. So what do you really think, deep down? That's your answer and it's the right one. You have to do what you feel in your heart of hearts is right for you. I will also be happy for you to find your peace about this, Tami. :hug:
I don't hold it against anyone to have or not have a Christmas tree - do what you're comfortable with and don't do anything that makes your spirit uncomfortable. It's just not for me and those are my reasons, in part. You know there's always more, lol...
Birthdays, to me, are fine; nothing wrong with Thanksgiving; 4th of July, no biggy; Mother's Day and Father's Day - how nice!; Labor Day - yah!; Memorial Day doesn't do much for me... But you know, every day is special - the other day was 'clean off your desk day' but I decided not to participate in that disgusting heathen custom! lol! :P Actually, I dislike Easter trappings even more, 'cause you can dress the Easter bunny up in all kinds of 'cute' outfits, but he's still Astarte's side-kick. And I think I finally convinced my MIL to toss her 'cute' witch rug she dragged out every Halloween - that's another story... :wizard:hehe
LoL at Frank:giggle: - yes, the lights are... just lights! And they really are purty!:thumbsup: I 'invented' those outdoor tube light - did you know that...? :whistle:
:love:Love you guys -
:peace
Hi Willa Thanks for your input on this! I would like to read the article you mentioned if you can find it.
Just to clarify, my origional post,
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=2802
was my words only, and direct quotations from "Insight on the Scriptures", and one other website. :thumbup:
Thank you for your input, sis Willa! :happyheart:
And yeah, I always thought hubby shared my point of view too...until he went and bought the tree, LOL!
I was born and raised a JW, so I never had a pre-JW life to compare notes with. And you're right: Sometimes, when we think we have things all figured out, something comes along and makes us re-think our stance on a matter. (Dontcha just love when that happens? LOL!)
After mulling all this over, and taking everyone's thoughts into consideration, I have come to this conclusion: If we were to rid our lives of every single thing that has been a part of false worship (either past or present), that wouldn't leave us with much left in life. We would have to do without pets, incense, wedding rings, sunlight, moonlight, meat, grains, various species of trees, and plants, just to name a few things. What seems to be more important is one's attitude towards the items: For example, when I see a figurine of Buddha, I see a false god every time. But whenever I see a cat or a pine forest, I don't even think of false gods (at least, not until I started this topic, LOL!)
I'm thinking it's what's in our hearts is what dictates what is an idol and what is not. Is my family worshipping the tree? Are they making it into some kind of god? I don't think they are, they don't even sing the "Oh Christmas Tree" song (which would step into the realms of idolatry). The concept of Christ and His birth are what are in their minds when putting up the tree, not homage to a false god, not even homage to the tree itself.
I'm thinking that Yahweh isn't as offended about it as I originally thought. It's still not something I want to participate in, but I'm realizing this is more of a matter between each individual and Yahweh. Just because I'm uncomfortable with it doesn't mean they have to be as well.