Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hello one and all ...:D:hibye:

I hope this day finds you all well and rested and busy in strengthening our faith and love in our God.:D:thumbsup:

Yesterday while doing the dishes some Scriptures came to mind and if their may be a connection to them and what it may mean ... I decided to write down my thoughts and feelings and wonderings and ... sorry ... it came out as usual ... ;):redface:rather ...LONG ... but I was hoping for your input in discussing if I am way out in left field ... or at least maybe on the 'right track' ...:read::friends:

Anyway ... I'll post what I wrote ... and if any of you can 'wade' through it, I most sincerely hope that you will share your views and feelings ... whether in agreement or not ... for that is after all what we are here for ... to help one another as iron sharpening iron ...:coffeeread:

Here it is ...

When Jehovah Leaves Us!

I got to thinking about Christ Jesus (what else is new:siskiss:) and when he was on the torture stake and uttered those sad and mournful and deeply pained words ...

Matt. 27:46 ...

46 About the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “E′li, E′li, la′ma sa•bach•tha′ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

One can only imagine Jesus' ACUTE SENSE OF LOSS, his utter sense of BEING ALL ALONE when his heavenly Father took away, or removed, any protection ... or holy spirit ... from his only-begotten son! This ‘connection’, this ‘spiritual awareness, with his Father was something Christ Jesus must have felt within himself, depended upon, perhaps without even being fully aware of it, but something that gave him the strength to believe, to endure, all that he must in order for him to fulfill to completion his 'role' as the savior and redeemer of sinful mankind ... ...:cry::cry:

Now, Jesus was conscious of EVERYTHING he SAID and DID ... making sure to FULFILL all that he had to do in regard to prophesy and the law ... for in his own words about fulfilling what he must, even on the night he was to be taken away to die he said …:crybaby:

Mark 14:49 …

49 Day after day I was with YOU in the temple teaching, and yet YOU did not take me into custody. Nevertheless, it is in order that the Scriptures may be fulfilled.”

So, when he uttered those agonizingly heart-wrenching words and in unbearable pain on his instrument of death … “E′li, E′li, la′ma sa•bach•tha′ni?” … it would stand to reason, would it not, that it was IMPORTANT for him to say somehow …

For it was shortly AFTER that he said he said as is brought out in John 19:30 …

30 When, now, he had received the sour wine, Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!” and, bowing his head, he delivered up [his] spirit.

Other renderings of the word ‘accomplished’ are … completed, finished, concluded, discharged (as a debt)

So, Jesus died knowing all he had to do was done … our ‘debt’ was ‘paid’ … bought with the price of the death of the Son of God.

However, is it possible that WE may ever have a moment when we will have to face and experience the sense of isolation from God as our Lord Jesus Christ experienced?

According to prophetic Scripture it may appear to be so …

Please note what is said in Isaiah 54: 5-8 …

5 “For your Grand Maker is your husbandly owner, Jehovah of armies being his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Repurchaser. The God of the whole earth he will be called. 6 For Jehovah called you as if you were a wife left entirely and hurt in spirit, and as a wife of the time of youth who was then rejected,” your God has said.
7 “For a little moment I left you entirely, but with great mercies I shall collect you together. 8 With a flood of indignation I concealed my face from you for but a moment, but with loving-kindness to time indefinite I will have mercy upon you,” your Repurchaser, Jehovah, has said.

How can we say that this prophesy may apply to us, those who will be living in the time of the end that Jesus prophesied about? If we read on in the next verse, 9, it may set the time frame for us …

9 “This is just as the days of Noah to me. Just as I have sworn that the waters of Noah shall no more pass over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not become indignant toward you nor rebuke you. 10 For the mountains themselves may be removed, and the very hills may stagger, but my loving-kindness itself will not be removed from you, nor will my covenant of peace itself stagger,” Jehovah, the One having mercy upon you, has said.

Ezekiel also speaks about a time when Jehovah will conceal his face from the house of Israel in Ez. 39: 21-24 …

21 “‘And I will set my glory among the nations; and all the nations will have to see my judgment that I have executed and my hand that I have placed among them. 22 And those of the house of Israel will have to know that I am Jehovah their God from that day and forward. 23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’

This ‘concealing’ of Jehovah’s face means that he will hide from his people, that he will absent or not be there for them. Because of their ‘unfaithfulness’ some will die at the hands of their enemies, and the nations will know they are able to do so because of Jehovah ‘not being with his people’ at this time.

Jehovah doesn’t turn away from us lightly or for no good reason. It is because of the terrible sinful state that his people have allowed themselves to be in. This is mentioned at Isaiah 59:2-4 …

2 No, but the very errors of YOU people have become the things causing division between YOU and YOUR God, and YOUR own sins have caused the concealing of [his] face from YOU to keep from hearing. 3 For YOUR own palms have become polluted with blood, and YOUR fingers with error. YOUR own lips have spoken falsehood. YOUR own tongue kept muttering sheer unrighteousness. 4 There is no one calling out in righteousness, and no one at all has gone to court in faithfulness. There has been a trusting in unreality, and a speaking of worthlessness. There has been a conceiving of trouble, and a bringing of what is hurtful to birth.

Micah too, speaks about a time when Jehovah’s people will call out to him for aid, but there will be no answer from him. For he must allow their ‘punishment’, their ‘discipline’ to produce the good fruitage that it will.

Micah 3:1-4 …

1 And I proceeded to say: “Hear, please, YOU heads of Jacob and YOU commanders of the house of Israel. Is it not YOUR business to know justice? 2 YOU haters of what is good and lovers of badness, tearing off their skin from people and their organism from off their bones; 3 YOU the ones who have also eaten the organism of my people, and have stripped their very skin from off them, and smashed to pieces their very bones, and crushed [them] to pieces like what is in a widemouthed pot and like flesh in the midst of a cooking pot. 4 At that time they will call to Jehovah for aid, but he will not answer them. And he will conceal his face from them in that time, according as they committed badness in their dealings.

Yes, Jehovah’s people will HAVE to take responsibility for their sins, not hiding their sins, not blaming it on others as our first parents did in the Garden of Eden, but putting the blame where it belongs, upon their OWN shoulders.

Once they do this, once they truly repent after experiencing the devastating loss of favor … loss of contact … with their heavenly Father, Jehovah will proceed to do what he has always done to his earthly human creation. He will turn back to this chastened and humbled people. He will take them back. He will forgive them and cleanse them and use them in faith inspiring way.

As in Isaiah, Ezekiel too speaks about this time when Jehovah will ‘turn back’ to his people once they have ‘borne their humiliation’ and come to REALLY KNOW that Jehovah is their God.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 …

25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Now is when I shall bring back the captive ones of Jacob and actually have mercy upon all the house of Israel; and I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name. 26 And they will have borne their humiliation and all their unfaithfulness with which they have acted toward me, when they dwell on their soil in security, with no one to make [them] tremble. 27 When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’
28 “‘And they will have to know that I am Jehovah their God, when I send them in exile to the nations and actually bring them together upon their soil, so that I shall leave none of them remaining there any longer. 29 And I shall no longer conceal my face from them, because I will pour out my spirit upon the house of Israel,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”

It may be good to reflect perhaps on HOW WE WILL FEEL and WHAT WILL WE DO when Jehovah abandons or leaves us.

It would seem that this would be a GREAT TEST of our FAITH … our BELIEF in our God and in Christ Jesus and the promises they hold out for us … a faith that is TOTALLY and TRULY based on LOVE of God and Christ …

Perhaps the Scripture Luke 18:8 will come to take on even greater meaning and understanding for us. For it will be ONLY our FAITH that will cause to recognize our sinful state, be humble and repent, FULLY believing that our God will return, will not leave us permanently if we truly are his people in whole soul, heart, strength and mind.

8 I tell YOU, He will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?”

I used to wonder so many times about this scripture. Thinking OF COURSE there will be faith! Are not, just speaking of JW’s, MILLIONS putting faith in Jehovah and Christ? What about the millions other besides? So WHY would he ask this question. I always felt there must be something more to it … but what …?

How many times was it the FAITH of the people around him that Jesus commented and remarked upon? If they did NOT have this faith, Jesus could not do anything for them. This faith was based on the LOVE that his people had for Jehovah and laws. They were HOPING, and then BELIEVING that indeed Jesus was the Messiah they were looking for for so long.

It was our Lord’s own faith in his Father, his own love that enabled him to carry through to the end, an end that was in reality the beginning of the hope of the ‘real life’ that we all so look forward to.

As in the case with Christ Jesus, even though Jehovah ‘forsook’, or ‘left’ him, he did not do so for very long. It was in only a ‘moment’, for in just 3 ½ days later we see that Jehovah restored his life and he was once again blessed with being or ‘connected’ to his heavenly Father! Something we know meant everything to our Lord and Savior.

So, may we NOW build up our faith, and make it strong, so that when we as a people will also seem to have to face that ‘aloneness’ from our God; we will remain TRUE to our faith! So, that when Jesus ‘comes’ he WILL SEE we have faith even when it seems there may be nothing to put faith into …

Perhaps the Scripture at Heb. 11:1 will come to have an even greater meaning to our lives and hearts than we may have at first imagined …

11 Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

So, let us build up our most precious treasures, our faith and belief, our hope and our trust, our love and our devotion in our God and in following in the footsteps of our Lord.

For if we do, when Jehovah turns back to us, he will find us waiting there for his return and we will find and experience REALLY KNOWING … on a deeper and more personal level than ever before what it means for us to be his people and he to be our God!


Well, that's it ...:D relief, relief ...:D

I hope I have applied things in context and the reference Scriptures correctly, but as I am just 'feeling my way around' in this new research project I could be off here and there ...

Now, hopefully ... some of YOUR thoughts ...:thumbsup::giverose:

Very thoughtful post BruisedReed. We humans sometimes entertain the notion that the God of the universe has at some time left us. We feel that perhaps because of wrongs that we have committed that he has abandoned us. The experience that many of us have had with the WT may lend credence to the thought that the Father has left us.

But the bestowal of Christ in the flesh has showed once and for all that God has never left us. Such sentiments are not realities from our Father's perspective. They are feelings that are generated within our own mind. The darkness of the Luciferic rebellion has caused millions of humans on this planet to believe that God has left them. Jesus Christ made it clear that we have never been seperated from the Father. Our Father has always loved us, despite our sins and shortcomings.

Notice what this commentary has to say about the lessons from the cross:

So, mankind has never been abandoned by God. This is shown by God's allowing his Son to submit to the free will of evil men that would behave like unreasoning animals in bringing about his death. Jesus's death on the cross brings to all of us the amazing realization that our Father has always loved us. Our little world is like a beacon that shines this amazing truth to every corner of our grand universe.

Love,
Paul

Hello my friends,

Interesting thoughts BR.  I agree..Jesus had to feel that complete withdrawl of his father's spirit before death.  It must have been absolutely terrible.  My heart cries to think of it.

Now the question logically arrises.  Are we going to be faced with the same trial.  Is it necesarry for us to also take those last steps without the aid of the father.  I am not sure.  We are all aware that we have the fathers promise of protection and support.  We also know it is a personal trial of loyality and faith in our father.

Personally IMHO, two things come to mind.  First, such withdrawl of spirit was necessary for the ransom to be completely of Jesus free will and desire.  Second, although a similar death may face us in the future, it may not be necessary for our Father to abandon us, for our sacrifices to be of our free will.  For instance, Stephen obviously felt Jehovah's full support and love right up until his death.

Sorry I have no scriptures right off to interject.  But I will ponder.

Love to all
Lynn

Very interesting thoughts BR, very interesting. I am wondering if the meaning that we will be abandoned for a short time means that Jehovah wants to see if we would demonstrate the same exact example that his Son, Christ Jesus did by not losing confidence and faith in him, to see if we are able to endure whatever comes before us even painful and not forsake him? These are just my thoughts. This is a very good study point.

Where does A Broken Heart Go?

Where does a broken heart go?
Does it just fade away?
Is it lost forever?
Will it live again someday?

How can a broken heart
Live on with more than its share
When it knows the game is lost
And it's hopeless to care?

When a heart has taken
'Bout all it can stand
Is it then protected
With God's loving hand?

Where does a broken heart go
When it dies of pain?
Is there a heaven for broken hearts
Will it live again?

Is it then protected
With God's loving hand?

Where does a broken heart go
When it dies of pain?
Is there a heaven for broken hearts
Will it live again?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dKBEH_aV...re=related

:heartbeat:

I agree Paul with your post. God never left Jesus or any of us but that is what it sometimes feels like from our perspective. Sometimes Gods discipline takes the form of letting us get on with it until we learn, which can feel like a dark night of the soul. This sometimes happens when we ignore God or other times when God fashions a situation to challenge and train us or when life simply gets hard due to chance or the result of others abusing their free will which affects us. God never leaves us though.

Psalm 22 is the very scripture that Jesus is quoting from when he said those words.

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psa 22:1 To the Chief Musician, on the deer of the dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me, and are far from My deliverance, from the words of My groaning?

However Jesus is in fact quoting this on the cross as a way of telling us that if we want to know how he was feeling on the inside on that cross we need to read psalm 22. Not just the beginning of it but all of it. Taken together it paints a picture not of the presence of God being taken away from Jesus, over some technical point, or us when we suffer as I tell you God doesn't do that ever. It paints the picture that Jesus on one level FELT abandoned but on a deeper level KNEW that God was with him. See this scripture:

Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The joy set before him is what got Jesus through the suffering. The joy that he was going to be with his Dad once again in heaven. If Jesus was actually abandoned on the cross, if even for only a short time, then Hebrews cannot be true or inspired because Joy of being with his Dad in heaven is what got him through it. The feelings of abandonment was only that, feelings. Our hearts can condemn us but God is greater than our hearts that sometimes lie.

1Jn 3:20 because if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.

Read the whole of Psalm 22 to see the message Jesus wanted us understand and of how he felt and how we can feel when we meet our day of tribulation.

See this verse:

Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; and He has not hidden His face from Him, but when He cried to Him, He heard.

God never leaves you or me when we suffer!

Psa 22:1 To the Chief Musician, on the deer of the dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me, and are far from My deliverance, from the words of My groaning?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; and in the night, and there is no silence to Me.
Psa 22:3 But You are holy, being enthroned on Israel's praises.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in You; they trusted, and You delivered them.
Psa 22:5 They cried to You, and were delivered; they trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of mankind, and despised by the people.
Psa 22:7 All who see Me scornfully laugh at Me; they open the lip; they shake the head, saying,
Psa 22:8 He rolled on Jehovah, let Him deliver Him; let Him rescue Him, since He delights in Him.
Psa 22:9 For You are He, My Taker from the womb; causing Me to trust on My mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast on You from the womb, from My mother's belly, You are My God.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from Me; for trouble is near; because no one is there to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have circled around Me; strong bulls of Bashan have surrounded Me.
Psa 22:13 They opened their mouth on Me, like a lion ripping and roaring.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like waters, and all My bones are spread apart; My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and My tongue clings to My jaws;
Psa 22:16 and You appoint Me to the dust of death; for dogs have encircled Me; a band of spoilers have hemmed Me in, piercing My hands and My feet.
Psa 22:17 I count all My bones; they look, they stare at Me.
Psa 22:18 They divide My garments among them, and they made fall a lot for My clothing.
Psa 22:19 But You, O Jehovah, be not far off; O My Strength, hurry to help Me!
Psa 22:20 Deliver My soul from the sword, My only one from the paw of the dog.
Psa 22:21 Save Me from the lion's mouth; and from the horns of the wild oxen. You have answered Me.
Psa 22:22 I will declare Your name to My brothers; I will praise You in the midst of the assembly.
Psa 22:23 You who fear Jehovah, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; and all the seed of Israel, fear Him.
Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; and He has not hidden His face from Him, but when He cried to Him, He heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those fearing Him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek Jehovah shall praise Him; your heart shall live forever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn back to Jehovah; and all the families of the nations shall worship before You.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is Jehovah's; and He is the ruler among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the fat ones of the earth have eaten, and have worshiped; all those going down to the dust shall bow before Him; and He kept not His own soul alive.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve Him; it shall be spoken of the Lord to the coming generation;
Psa 22:31 they shall come and shall declare His righteousness to a people that shall yet be born; for He has done it.

Psa 22:24 For He has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; and He has not hidden His face from Him, but when He cried to Him, He heard.

Thank you for that point Seraphim.