Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

This is an interesting train of thought NT, especially since there is a school of thought that says that when Jesus is referring to "the dead" that it is in fact a metaphor for being within the faith. And that such things as this parable and the phrase "let the dead bury the dead" are in fact metaphors for this: that those in the belief are alive, and those outside of it are dead.

Though...not everyone follows this train, obviously, but your post brought it to my mind. :)

Hi Draka.. When one thinks about it, if it is a literal situation, then the dead are judged immediately when they die.. like Christendom believes. But because the Great White Throne and many other scriptures teach that the judgement is in the last day or at the end of the thousand years, this seems to be a false teaching.. We all know the 'meeting Peter @ the pearly gates' scenario. I'm sure most get this idea from the Richman and L. parable.

Also, it seems the JW's are right in saying that the parable is teaching that the 2 men are 'dead' or 'alive' from Jehovah's viewpoint, instead of actually so..

( Lets look at this in a natural way lets say I break the law, I go to jail and await trial held until the time of my trial [ at The white Throne ] ( which by the way I agree 100% is after the 1000yrs)

When I was alive I had broken all the Laws of God. How?

( I had stolen small things like mp3's,pens for work etc. What does that make me a THIEF,

next I had looked at a woman ( multiple accounts here ) lustfully what did Jesus say I did in my Heart, commited Adultery so I am an ADULTER as well, Matt 5:28

at some point in my life I harbored hatred in my heart toward some one ( possibly driving on the highway and getting cut off then the brakes slammed on ) Matt 5:22 making me a MURDERER at Heart.

Matt 15:19 says :For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

(James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. ) ( break 1 I'm guilty of 10 )

( so not just on my actions but by my thoughts I will be Judged for God knows them all )

What is the penalty for my thoughts and actions?

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

But While I'm alive I have a chance to escape that penalty by Repenting of my Sins, going to Jesus and confessing to Him that I need Him to save me from the penalty of my Sins ( the second Death )

And as Rom 10:9 says:

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness( that I have no righteousness of my own and I need His ), and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame( faith in Him who paid the penalty as My Saviour ).”

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. ( So if I call on the name of the Lord Jesus I will be saved ) AND NOW in this Life I can Say!!!

Rom 8:1 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

And when I die I will appear here ( Never at the White Throne )

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall .

2 Corinth 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The Judgment Seat of Christ

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ ( Believers )that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. ( keep the rewards or lose them )



But some never repent and turn to Christ

Acts 13:26Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

It is the person who is alive who accepts or rejects Christ as Saviour
a one time no second chance deal. Accept or reject and the decision is Eternal.


" In Christ "

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:[/b][/quote]

Hi NT, I thought I'd comment on this area then go back to the original and give you my thoughts and some verses to consider.

I don't see Judgement to be a performance based. I see it based solely on the basis of Sin and the Judgement of it in order to
gain ( Eternal Life/entrance to the Kingdom of God/Righteousness ).

When God Judges Sin He always offers a way out!!!

"The way" out was a picture or forshadow of what would come
" In Christ "
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When Judgement fell on those in Noah's day " The Ark " was the way out. Those who believed God's word that in deed it would rain for 40 days and 40 nights were " in the Ark " safe from the Wrath of God when it fell on the Ungodly world.
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When Israel was in bondage in Eqypt God sent " a way " out.
Believe what God has said to Moses follow Him and you will be free.

(another forshadow of Christ who can lead those who believe in Him out of being slaves in bondage to Sin to being free from the guilt of Sin)
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When God's judgement fell He also gave " a way " out!!!

Kill a firstborn male Lamb, put the blood upon your door posts and lintel ( the cross beam ) and stay " inside " all night until morning and
death will not come upon your firstborn male.

A beautiful picture of what Christ would do for those who are safe
from the wrath of God " In Him " the believer is safe under the Blood of Christ. When He rises from the dead He becomes the Firstborn of the Dead and the Believer the first fruits of His Labor.
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When they complained in the wilderness He gave them " Bread from Heaven " a picture of what the Lord Jesus would do for those who are starving Spiritually with it being a picture of His Body.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Matt 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
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And water from a Rock a picture of how Christ would be the water of Life to those thirsty souls who thirst for Him and His righteousness. Like a lady who tried to find happiness in men and Adulty but came up DRY.Until she came to Christ " The Living water "

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

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Lastly after the people in Numbers 21 Sinned against The Lord He sent fiery Serpents among them. Which bit them and many died. Moses Interceded for the people ( another forshadow a better mediator to come " The Man Christ Jesus " ) and God told Moses to make a Bronze Serpent, put it on a pole and lift it up and if anyone who bad been bitten by a Serpent ( and we all have ) looked up at the Serpent that person would Live.

God once again gave a way out.

"In Christ" God has given the best way out the Sinner is to look to Him to save them from the penalty of their sins. ( the second death )

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Catch that? You don't have to die to be condemed, simply by not believing while alive the person is condemned already.

As to a young child who dies I agree and see this verse as to why.

Gen 18:25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

If the child is too young to understand, a person who's mentally unable to comprehend, the native in remote Africa who has no idea about Jesus and Salvation and that they need Him to be their Saviour ( I see the Gen verse applying )

and James shows us this in James 4:17

Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.


" In Christ "
BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Because Jehovah gives a 'way out', wouldn't an unrighteous standing before the white throne with a resurrection of condemnation have an opportunity to see the error and repent?

Of course, I am only speculating. But, is the only reason for Jesus resurrecting the unrighteous because the scriptures say that ALL will know Jehovah's name; for sanctification purposes?

With Christian Love, Debbie

It is important to consider all the complexities of the human condition and their opportunities and situations in relation to the Good News over the past 2000 years.

God being merciful and the ultimate knower of all things related to the human condition and psyche desires all to be given an enlightened, unencummbered free opportunity to serve him.

Reflect to on the purpose of the Millennium and post Millennium period and what they are for and God's great love and compassion for the human race, Rev.21; 22.

In Christ

designs

Hi Guys,

One opinion on the parable is that Jesus was speaking to His audience from their own perspective. That perspective is assumed to be Platonic.

I never liked the idea of a resurrection for the sole purpose of demonstrating a feature of God’s personality. It seems too cruel and too pointless. We were always taught that the most important point of human salvation is not actually our salvation but the vindication of God’s good name. I agree with this, but I don’t see how resurrecting so many unfortunates just to immediately remove them from existence again serves that purpose. It seems a bit too much like a cosmic "I told you so!"

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi Brendan,

I agree, I think Jesus was having a go at the religious leaders adopted Helenisitic views and blended them rather artfully into this story.

Some of the views expressed in this thread are very Calvinistic in origin. One of the Reformed era theologians who opposed Calvin astutely pointed out that Calvin's God 'was a monster'.

designs

Hi Apryl,

That is the issue, I guess, about this explanation. Everybody assumes that the Biblical writers quoted every word Jesus said 100% correctly. Not only that, it is assumed that any additional context we might need to get the full meaning of His words is also there through divine inspiration. It certainly has caused a lot of confusion and worked wonders for the proponents of the concept of burning forever in hell. Could Luke have inadvertently added to confusion rather than to sound belief, and could that happen, theoretically, under the guidance of holy spirit?

I read the article here:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManan...ching.html

The writer says that the parable is one of a set of five stories condemning pretentiousness religion and that this one is ‘a satire, ridiculing the stance of the Scribes and Pharisees’.

I can understand the point about the spirits of dead people that have gone back to God, and you reckon they might contain the seed of the new creation awaiting resurrection. You concluded in an earlier thread that if God’s spirit is animate, containing His essential nature, then why not ours?

I can only say that your speculation that these spirits/seeds may be judged while yet in a bodiless state is as good an idea as any. Does it definitely rule out the awful mental awareness that any hope of future existence is gone? I don’t know. You reckon that consciousness would require a human mind, if I understand you correctly. Perhaps, although this obviously does not apply to spirit creatures in general, it may be in the nature of humans that consciousness is only possible through a soul, whether it be an Adamic soul or a spirit-soul.

Regards,
Brendan.

This topic was started here:

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=3409

Since then I have done alot of research on the subject and am convinced the parable is a very clever multi-layered story.

So more to come when I have time.

Love vick.

P.S. you need to take a look at Revelation to understand the resurrection