Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

OK so i was thinking about God evicting Adam and Eve from their home.

and I came up with a few questions.

did they have children at the time?
why would they be afraid of the flaming swords?
Why were centry's posted if the swords could stop them from entering ther home again?

was it merely a sybolic eviction?
was the garden between earth and the heavens that GOD reside in?

This scripture has always intrigued me too.

I have wondered, if it was literal does that not mean that there was only one way into the garden, “in the east”? Otherwise someone could get in by some other way.

I am of the feeling that it was literal, but had a symbolic meaning also (as most things in the Bible do). Namely, that man could not get back to eternal life by his own means (Gen 3:22). Rather Jesus is the only door for mankind to return to atonement with God, and eternal life (Luke 23:43).

Maybe the following will be useful:

lah'·hat : AV — flaming 1, enchantment 1

Other location of usage:

Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. - Ex 7:11


kheh'·reb: AV — sword 401, knife 5, dagger 3, axes 1, mattocks 1, TOOL

1) sword, knife
a) sword
b) knife
tools for cutting stone

Used almost exclusively as “sword”


hä·fak' : AV — turn 57, overthrow 13, overturn 5, change 3, turn... 6, become 1, came 1, converted 1, gave 1, make 1, perverse 1, perverted 1, retired 1, tumbled 1

1) to turn, overthrow, overturn
a) (Qal)
1) to overturn, overthrow
2) to turn, turn about, turn over, turn around
3) to change, transform
b) (Niphal)
1) to turn oneself, turn, turn back
2) to change oneself
3) to be perverse
4) to be turned, be turned over, be changed, be turned against
5) to be reversed
6) to be overturned, be overthrown
7) to be upturned
c) (Hithpael)
1) to transform oneself
2) to turn this way and that, turn every way
(Hophal) to turn on someone

Other location of usage:

“...I will not overthrow this city...” - Gen 19:21

“...when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.” - Gen 19:29

“...and all the waters that [were] in the river were turned to blood.” - Ex 7:20

Thanks John,

I have more to say but will wait for more ideas

TD

Hi Guys,

I’ve always thought that when Adam and Eve sinned, they became flawed creatures. Because they had shown the indication of their hearts, it was assumed that they would move from one act of independence to another, and claim everlasting life from the other tree. If this had been allowed, they would have become everlastingly imperfect creatures, a never-ending misery for them and a travesty to God’s wonderful purpose. So He would not allow that to happen until the wrong had been put right through the ransom of His Son.

That’s my guess. Another guess about the cherubim and the flaming swords is that the swords blocked the entrance, and the cherubim monitored the event.

Brendan.

The only children there would have been would be Cain and Abel.
I'm pretty certain that if there were children evicted from the Garden, that the Scriptures would mention it (the alleged children probably would've been mentioned in the doling out of clothing).

I would be.

The Hebrew there says that 1) there was a cherub/cherubim, 2) there was a flaming charm/sword, and 3) it turned every which way to guard the way to the Tree. The "it" could easily be referring to the cherub/sword unit (ie a cherub equipped with the flaming sword).

Only if the whole creation account is symbolic. Show us another factual account in the Bible that turned out to be 100% symbolic.

That I don't know, and I don't think the Bible specifies.

That's my guess as well.

One of the things that has caused me to rethink the Garden OF Eden events is the swiftness in which Eve was tempted...Regarding children....

In Chapter 3 they were given their punishments in verses 14-18 and they had no children as in chapter 4 after they had left the garden verse 1 says ''Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain.--born outside the garden. verse 2. ''Later she again gave birth, to his brother Abel. So both Cain and Abel were born outside the Garden of Eden.

Surprisingly also is the thought that Even wasn't named until after they were expelled from the garden. After they were given their punishments in chapter 3 verse 20 says: After this Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she had to become the mother of everyone living.'' ....meaningful to me because it is saying Eve wasn't in the Garden long enough to get a name :shocked: seems like someone was laying in wait for her..... :love:

Hi Guys,

Can I add fuel to the discussion by making a comment about the ‘corresponding ransom’? Many of us are XJWs so we are familiar with this expression. We need to focus on correspondence. We have always thought of how Adam and Jesus corresponded to each other as perfect human beings. Now, it seems that we might have been misdirected by the WS.

If Jesus is not the corresponding ransom for perfect Adam in the sense of not satisfying the criteria of like for like, where did we go wrong in our thinking?

Was it that the ‘correspondence’ did not refer to the two perfect people at all, but to the sin and the necessary price for the freedom from sin - in other words, crime and redemption? The laws about redemption from enslavement to another in Leviticus 25 might be the key to a different understanding of ‘correspondence’.

The point raised about imperfection passed from generation to generation through offspring born by sexual intercourse might be very valid. If human parents could not produce a child born without the dent, it was absolutely essential that the child be born of holy spirit. If so, what is it that we don’t understand about the husband/wife relationship that a child created in the womb by holy spirit can be perfect, even though His mother is an imperfect human? I would have thought it was necessary to have two perfect parents to create a perfect child. I’m thinking mathematically; two positives make a positive, two negatives even make a positive, but a negative and a positive always produce a negative. Perhaps there is a sacred secret here about the relationship between men and women that I do not understand.

Brendan.

Hi Brendon :love:

It has occured to me Brendon that you are quite brilliant. Your thoughts are always insightful and engaging and thought-provoking. And --I agree--there's so much we don't really know (my opinion also) about --dare I say--most everything. I have wondered tho the same as you about Jesus and Mary and his perfection even tho she was imperfect...some day tho Brendan around the camp fire Chuck started we will all be talking up a storm and the answers will be there...:love:

Hi All!

I am going to jump in to your discussion a little bit late I am afraid, but as I read through your comments I had a couple of thoughts come to mind.

Adam was spoken of as being in Gods Image. But his offspring were refered to as being in the Image of Adam. I think this difference helps us see that something was lost. Humans could no longer bear the image of God. What had Adam lost? Why did he feel naked? He no longer felt clothed, and he perhaps sensed that loss of bearing the image of God.

Jesus explains to us that we must be born again.

Joh 1:12 Some, however, did receive him and believed in him; so he gave them the right to become God's children. :13 They did not become God's children by natural means, that is, by being born as the children of a human father; God himself was their Father.

and

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered, "I am telling you the truth: no one can see the Kingdom of God without being born again." :4 "How can a grown man be born again?" Nicodemus asked. "He certainly cannot enter his mother's womb and be born a second time!"
Joh 3:5 "I am telling you the truth," replied Jesus, "that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.
:6 A person is born physically of human parents, but is born spiritually of the Spirit. :7 Do not be surprised because I tell you that you must all be born again.

Jesus gave us the ability to be clothed again. We are reborn of the Spirit, and through it we are no longer 'naked' and can also share in being in the image of God, because all who are part of the body of Christ are in his image.

Adam gave us physical life. But he was could not give us the relationship he lost, being clothed in his image. Jesus is called the greater adam, because he restored to us the true source of Life, being a child of God, in his image. Through him we are all reborn.

Hope I am making some sense. Some days what I think does not translate in to words, and only makes sense in my little head. :blush:

:heartbeat:
Lynn

OK
For NT,
A sentry I am terrible at spelling, was the ones who watched the door so to speak..

And Bredan your first post is very interesting.. not that the 2nd is not. LOL

As for children? Doesn’t anyone find it odd that no children were in the garden?

And as Wolfie pointed out Eve wasn’t even named. What did Adam call her?
YO man!! And it became woman?? Just a funny don’t get tied into a knot..

For an all important question.
Butifnox said to me
why would they be afraid of the flaming swords?
“I would be.”

How did they know what a sword was? And fire for that matter? Did they cook? Did they eat flesh? Did they even truly understand death? They never saw a human die before. How would we explain death to a child without a reference point?
What was to be afraid of? If they were in the garden all was peacefull right?

And for your 2nd ppost breda, Yup a whole lot we don't know.. and Yes what is sin and how does a coresponding sacrafice for our sin work?? Great thoughts.

AS for a child born perfect. Again what made HIM perfect? Was it not his training and his spirit? Was his flesh more perfect then ours? OR was it his new resurected body that was more perfect then ours?
Was Adams body the same as Jesus body before or after his resurection?
Inquiring minds want to know? so let me have it? :thumbup:

What if Sin came into this world thru rejection of perfection?
we are 1/2 spirt 1/2 flesh. if Adam rejected the 1/2 that is spirit then we are incomplete. so if GOD PUt the 1/2 spirit into the 1/2 flesh maybe that is what made Jesus whole?
Just some conjecture..


IT is really great to be able to just chat with you guy's

Hi Wolfie,

I would get a big head if it wasn’t for my teenage sons who realise that I’m a complete idiot. Thank you for your kind words! And you hit the target right on centre with your picture of fellow Christians relaxing in each other’s company and just talking to each other. As they say “Come, Lord Jesus, come!”

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi all :love:

I had a thought concerning children in the garden. Is it possible that the fall happened so quickly Adam and Eve hadn't even consumated their marriage yet? It is said in verse 1 of chapter 4 ''Now adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant.'' This is the first referrence to a physical relationship--just wondering of course but if she didn't even have time to get her name what else did they not have time for? ...just saying :heartbeat:

I think that is a realy viable thought Wolfie.

I am guess but I would say they were adult adolecents. if that is the correct word.