Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Q. What do I need to disprove the 1914 doctrine?

A. Nothing but your Bible and five minutes to read the following infoÂ from my website:

Quote:

Should you believe in the 1914 doctrine?

â€” Simply presenting the Sriptural evidence

There have been countless ways in which people have claimed to have discredited the "1914"-doctrine as taught by the Watchtower Society. Many of them involve wearisome investigation of the reigns of Babylonian kings. Of course if this teaching is false we should be willing to look at the evidence, but is there not an easier, more comprehensible way?

In this article I am presenting an explanation that is easy to follow and that can be supported right from your own copy of the Bible. First you need to know that in order for the Watchtower Society to be right about their calculation of 1914 as the year of Christ's enthronement, they need to be right about all of the following points:

1.The "seven times" of Daniel 4:16 apply to a time period where the Gentiles rule without intervention from God.

2.These "seven times" equal 2520 years."

3.The startingpoint of the 2520 years can be calculated from a pivotal date that is universally acknowledged.

4.The 70 years mentioned by Jeremiah can be used for the calculation of the startingpoint.

5.The 70 years ended two years after the pivotal date of the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE.

6.Counting back 70 years from 537 BCE gives the year 607 BCE, counting forwards 2520 years from that date gives the year 1914 CE.

Please note that if even one of the above points proves false than the calculation of 1914 is false. Now what should be our greatest concern is whether God's own Word contradicts any of these six points. Unfortunately for the WT Society, the Bible contradicts point 5.

This becomes obvious when we examine what it says about the 70 years. The Society uses Daniel 9:1,2 to justify the use of the period of 70 years:

1 In the first year of DaÂ·riÂ´us the son of AÂ·hasÂ·uÂ·eÂ´rus of the seed of the Medes, who had been made king over the kingdom of the ChalÂ·deÂ´ans; 2 in the first year of his reigning I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years.

They then reason that these seventy years ended when the Jews were back in Jerusalem, presumably in 537 BCE. However this can be proven to be false from the texts that Daniel refers to namely: Jeremiah 25:11, 12

11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.â€â€™

12 â€œâ€˜And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,â€™ is the utterance of Jehovah, â€˜their error, even against the land of the ChalÂ·deÂ´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.

All is well until we start reading verse 12. Please note that in the Society's "reference bible" at Daniel 9:2 there is a reference to Jeremiah 25:11 but not to verse 12! What does Jeremiah prophesy there? Jehovah would act against Babylon after the seventy years have been fulfilled. What year did that happen? Their own reference at Jeremiah 25:12 points back to Daniel 5:26, 30 which says:

26 â€œThis is the interpretation of the word: MEÂ´NE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it.

30 InÂ Â that very night BelÂ·shazÂ´zar the ChalÂ·deÂ´an king was killed.

So here we have it, the Bible itself testifies that the 70 years had ended when the king of Babylon was called to account with the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. Therefore counting back 70 years from that pivotal date would not bring us to 607 BCE, and this invalidates the whole 1914 calculation.

No need then for lengthy discussions on who reigned when and for how long; all we need to remember is that Daniel refers to Jeremiah 25:12 which shows that the WT Society misapplies the period of the 70 years, making their whole 1914 argument and anything that is based on it invalid.

After reading this simple explanation you're probably wondering 'how come we've never noticed that before?' :whistle:

Howdy i-witness

Re: "Therefore counting back 70 years from that pivotal date would not bring us to 607 BCE, and this invalidates the whole 1914 calculation."

Would these observations effect calculations used in the essay:

"The Restoration of God's People Before The End"?

Christian love and appreciation,

gogh

i-witness, that was simply amazing. Thanks for that!

gogh Wrote:

Re:Â Â "Therefore counting back 70 years from that pivotal date would not bring us to 607 BCE, and this invalidates the whole 1914 calculation."

Would these observations effect calculations used in the essay:

"The Restoration of God's People Before The End"?

Hi gogh,

Yes, these observations affect what I calculated in that article as far as it relied on a possible date for Adam's creation. If the rest of the Society's calculations of time periods before 539 BCE were correct this would mean that Adam was created in 4024 BCE not 4026 BCE. But I'm beginning to suspect that there are even more errors in their pre-539 chronology. It is possible that there are errors in the calculation of the regnal years of kings or the lives of patriarchs due to rounding up/down to complete years.

Therefore it doesn't prove that I'm wrong about there being parallel time periods; it just means that I can't prove my start date for counting forward 33Â½ years. My current view however is to look at the possible end date of the 3Â½ years and count back. The end date obtained from a code on Armageddon is in the Jewish year 5770 which corresponds with September 2009 - October 2010. Counting back 3Â½ years gives Spring 2006 - Spring 2007. So I'm not going to worry about being wrong about the 3Â½ years till after this Spring.

i-witness Wrote:

Q. What do I need to disprove the 1914 doctrine?

A. Nothing but your Bible and five minutes to read the following infoÂ from my website:

Quote:

Should you believe in the 1914 doctrine?

â€” Simply presenting the Sriptural evidence

There have been countless ways in which people have claimed to have discredited the "1914"-doctrine as taught by the Watchtower Society. Many of them involve wearisome investigation of the reigns of Babylonian kings. Of course if this teaching is false we should be willing to look at the evidence, but is there not an easier, more comprehensible way?

In this article I am presenting an explanation that is easy to follow and that can be supported right from your own copy of the Bible. First you need to know that in order for the Watchtower Society to be right about their calculation of 1914 as the year of Christ's enthronement, they need to be right about all of the following points:

1.The "seven times" of Daniel 4:16 apply to a time period where the Gentiles rule without intervention from God.

2.These "seven times" equal 2520 years."

3.The startingpoint of the 2520 years can be calculated from a pivotal date that is universally acknowledged.

4.The 70 years mentioned by Jeremiah can be used for the calculation of the startingpoint.

5.The 70 years ended two years after the pivotal date of the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE.

6.Counting back 70 years from 537 BCE gives the year 607 BCE, counting forwards 2520 years from that date gives the year 1914 CE.

Please note that if even one of the above points proves false than the calculation of 1914 is false. Now what should be our greatest concern is whether God's own Word contradicts any of these six points. Unfortunately for the WT Society, the Bible contradicts point 5.

This becomes obvious when we examine what it says about the 70 years. The Society uses Daniel 9:1,2 to justify the use of the period of 70 years:

1 In the first year of DaÂ·riÂ´us the son of AÂ·hasÂ·uÂ·eÂ´rus of the seed of the Medes, who had been made king over the kingdom of the ChalÂ·deÂ´ans; 2 in the first year of his reigning I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years.

They then reason that these seventy years ended when the Jews were back in Jerusalem, presumably in 537 BCE. However this can be proven to be false from the texts that Daniel refers to namely: Jeremiah 25:11, 12

11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.â€â€™

12 â€œâ€˜And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,â€™ is the utterance of Jehovah, â€˜their error, even against the land of the ChalÂ·deÂ´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.

All is well until we start reading verse 12. Please note that in the Society's "reference bible" at Daniel 9:2 there is a reference to Jeremiah 25:11 but not to verse 12! What does Jeremiah prophesy there? Jehovah would act against Babylon after the seventy years have been fulfilled. What year did that happen? Their own reference at Jeremiah 25:12 points back to Daniel 5:26, 30 which says:

26 â€œThis is the interpretation of the word: MEÂ´NE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it.

30 InÂ Â that very night BelÂ·shazÂ´zar the ChalÂ·deÂ´an king was killed.

So here we have it, the Bible itself testifies that the 70 years had ended when the king of Babylon was called to account with the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. Therefore counting back 70 years from that pivotal date would not bring us to 607 BCE, and this invalidates the whole 1914 calculation.

No need then for lengthy discussions on who reigned when and for how long; all we need to remember is that Daniel refers to Jeremiah 25:12 which shows that the WT Society misapplies the period of the 70 years, making their whole 1914 argument and anything that is based on it invalid.

After reading this simple explanation you're probably wondering 'how come we've never noticed that before?' :whistle:

Hi I-witness
I thought this explains your point.
http://geocities.com/jimspace3000/JWstrs/607BCE.htm

Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 B.C.E., but the Jewish captives did not return to their homeland until 537 B.C.E. Therefore, how could it be said that the Jews served "the king of Babylon" for seventy years if the king of Babylon was conquered two years earlier?

At Ezra 1:1-3 we read that it was in the first year of Cyrus that the decree was issued allowing the Jews to return to their homeland:

"And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovahâ€™s word from the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia so that he caused a cry to pass through all his realm, and also in writing, saying:

"This is what Cyrus the king of Persia has said, â€˜All the kingdoms of the earth Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me, and he himself has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all his people, may his God prove to be with him. So let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and rebuild the house of Jehovah the God of Israelâ€”he is the [true] Godâ€”which was in Jerusalem."â€”Ezra 1:1-3, NWT (see also 2 Chronicles 36:22-23).

Some critics have suggested that Jehovah's Witnesses have concocted an unorthodox and dishonest explanation in asserting that the seventy years of desolation ended in 537 B.C.E. Is this claim substantiated?

No. At Ezra 1:1, reference is made to "the first year of Cyrus," not "the year Cyrus became king" (or accession year), so he was speaking of the first regnal year of Cyrus, which cuneiform documentation places in 538/537 B.C.E. Jewish historian Josephus corroborates by referring to "the first year of the reign of Cyrus."â€”Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI, Chapter I.

This point is generally agreed upon by historians. For instance, the Handbook of Bible Chronology by Jack Finegan (Princeton University Press, 1964), p. 170, states:

"The biblical references to the first year of Cyrus when he made the proclamation which allowed the Jewish exiles to return from Babylon to Jerusalem (II Ch 36:22f.; Ezr 1:1f.) are presumably stated in terms of his reign in Babylon since they deal with an event in that city. According to the cuneiform evidence and the Babylonian calendar, Babylon fell on Tashritu 16 = Oct 12, 539 B.C., and Cyrus entered the city two and one-half weeks later on Arahsamnu 3 = Oct 29. His Babylonian regnal years began, therefore, as shown in Table 77. Accordingly his first year, in which he made the proclamation, was 538/537 B.C."

TABLE 77. BABYLONIAN REGNAL YEARS OF CYRUS
AT THE BEGINNING OF HIS REIGN

Accession 539/538
Year 1 538/537
Year 2 537/536

The Watchtower of May 1, 1952, pp. 271-2 further observes:

"In late years several cuneiform tablets have been discovered pertaining to the fall of Babylon which peg both Biblical and secular historic dates. The one tablet known as the "Nabunaid Chronicle" gives the date for the fall of Babylon which specialists have ascertained as being October 12-13, 539 B.C., Julian Calendar, or October 6-7, 539 B.C., according to our present Gregorian Calendar. This tablet also says that Cyrus made his triumphant entry into Babylon 16 days after its fall to his army. Thus his accession year commenced in October, 539 B.C. However, in another cuneiform tablet called "Strassmaier, Cyrus No. 11" Cyrusâ€™ first regnal year is mentioned and was determined to have begun March 17-18, 538 B.C., and to have concluded March 4-5, 537 B.C. It was in this first regnal year of Cyrus that he issued his decree to permit the Jews to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple. (Ezra 1:1) The decree may have been made in late 538 B.C. or before March 4-5, 537 B.C.

In either case this would have given sufficient time for the large party of 49,897 Jews to organize their expedition and to make their long four-month journey from Babylon to Jerusalem to get there by September 29-30, 537 B.C., the first of the seventh Jewish month, to build their altar to Jehovah as recorded at Ezra 3:1-3. Inasmuch as September 29-30, 537 B.C., officially ends the seventy years of desolation as recorded at 2 Chronicles 36:20, 21, so the beginning of the desolation of the land must have officially begun to be counted after September 21-22, 607 B.C., the first of the seventh Jewish month in 607 B.C., which is the beginning point for the counting of the 2,520 years."

The account is summarized nicely by Werner Keller in his book The Bible As History, p. 352:

"In any case it was a risky business to leave this wealthy country of Babylon, where they had established themselves and where most of them had grown up, and to set out on the difficult road back to the ruins of a ravaged land. Despite this, in the spring of 537 B.C., after long preparations a lengthy caravan set out on the trail toward the old homeland. . . . Almost 800 miles have to be covered between Babylon and distant Jerusalem, with the clouds of dust churned up by the caravan as a faithful companion throughout the whole journey."

Until their release in 537 B.C.E, for the entire duration that the Jewish exiles were held captive in Babylon, it could rightly be said that they were serving the king of Babylon. This is expanded upon in paragraph 10 of an article entitled "The 'Cup' That All Nations Must Drink at Godâ€™s Hand" that appeared in the September 15, 1979 issue of The Watchtower, p. 24:

"It is true that he [Cyrus] conquered Gentile Babylon in 539 B.C.E., or about two years before the "seventy years" of desolation of the land of Judah ran out. He proclaimed himself "king of Babylon" and at first did not alter the policy of the Babylonian dynasty of King Nebuchadnezzar. Thus the nations subjugated by Nebuchadnezzar continued to serve "the king of Babylon" 70 years."

Are Jehovah's Witnesses justified in making this claim? Yes, for the Bible tells us that after Cyrus II conquered Babylon, Darius the Mede became "king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans," (Daniel 5:31, 9:1) and shortly thereafter, Cyrus established his kingship over all of Babylon, even being referred to as "Cyrus the king of Babylon" at Ezra 5:13. A contemporary inscription on a clay barrel confirms the accuracy of the Biblical account:

"All the inhabitants of Babylon as well as the entire country of Sumer and Akkad, princes and governors (included), bowed to him (Cyrus) and kissed his feet, jubilant that he (had received) the kingship . . . I am Cyrus, king of the world, great king, legitimate king, king of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad."â€”Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, James B. Pritchard, p.316.

However, does that fact that Jeremiah 27:7 indicates that the nations would serve "him [Nebuchadnezzar], his son, and his grandson" mean that the seventy years of servitude would not include Cyrus as "king of Babylon"?

In fulfillment of Jeremiah 27:7, the exiled Jews did in fact literally serve Nebuchadnezzar's son (Evil-merodach) and Nebuchadnezzar's grandson (co-regent Belshazzer, whose mother was reportedly Nebuchadnezzar's daughter, Nitocris). However, the captive Jews also served other kings of Babylon, including Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk and Nabonidus, none of whom bore any blood relation to Nebuchadnezzar. Thus, the words at Jeremiah 27:7, though indisputably true, were obviously not meant to be an all-encompassing list of rulers whom the Jews would serve during the seventy years. Therefore, the Jews continued to serve the king of Babylon, which included Cyrus, until their official release initiated by Cyrus' decree described at Ezra 1:1:
"And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovahâ€™s word from the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia so that he caused a cry to pass through all his realm."â€”Ezra 1:1 (see also 2 Chronicles 36:22).

The highlighted portion of the above-quoted verse serves as unimpeachable evidence that "Jehovah's word from the mouth of Jeremiah" had not yet been accomplished, even by the "first year of Cyrus," proving conclusively that the conquest of Babylon by Persia was not the determining factor in fulfilling Jeremiah's prophecy. Therefore, the Jewish nation continued to serve the king of Babylon until their release from captivity in 537 B.C.E., resulting in the reoccupation of the land of Judah and the end of the desolation of the land.

Next article: In what manner did Jehovah "call to account against the king of Babylon and . . . against the land of the Chaldeans . . . their error" mentioned at Jeremiah 25:12?

http://geocities.com/jimspace3000/JWstrs/607BCE.htm

mark

Hi i-witness

Yes, this shows that the critics are right when they say the 70 years is in reference to a servitude of the nations to Babylon, which commenced in 609BCE when Babylon became dominant in the region.

Incidentally, the Watchtower base all of their pre-Temple chronology on 607BCE, the date of the Temple's destruction. If the Temple were actually destroyed in 587/6BCE (20 years later), then Adam's creation would also need to be moved about 20 years forward also.

Hi mark

Sorry, but the article you presented (and the subsequent one you linked to) do not explain the scripture in Jeremiah 25 verse 12. Jeremiah says explicitly:

"'And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'their error, even against the land of the Chaldeans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite."

Jehovah first calls to account against "the king of Babylon". That king was Belshazzar and no other king, since it was that king that Jehovah explicitly acted against as a king of Babylon. Jehovah did nothing against Darius or Cyrus - in fact, Cyrus was used to to do Jehovah's will!

As i-witness pointed out, the incident with the handwriting on the wall spells it out in simple terms:

"And as for you, his son Belshazzar, you have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this... MENE, MENE, TEKEL and PARSIN... God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it... you have been weighed in the balances and have been found deficient... your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians." (Daniel 5:25)

This judgement is first against Belshazzar, the king of Babylon, and then against his kingdom, which had been numbered and finished.

This took place in 539BCE. Thus, when Jehovah called to account against "the king of Babylon", the 70 years was over - not any later.

That is what Jeremiah said, plain and simple. Daniel simply records the calling to account of the king of Babylon.

The author of the articles you linked to is simply wrong.

Hi, i-witness, :hibye: gogh, :hibye: Mavos, :hibye: mark, :hibye: Interpretum-de-dum, :D and all! :hibye:

Personally, I lost all desire to debate with anyone about 1914 or any other dates, -- or, chronology in general, for that matter, -- a good little while back.

Here's a little ditty from the old infamous "Truth-Masters" series.

The Dance of the Watchtower "Truth-Masters."

(With absolutely no disrespect intended, for, ... "The Dance of the Wu Li Masters.")

The Tenth Stanza.

"Artfully contrived false stories."* ... 'Get to believe the lie.'**
"Operation of error,"** ... "God lets"** ... "go to them."** The 'structure,' it must die.
Genealogies, chronologies. 'Divining' and date-fixing.
In lust for special status, much falsehood with truth they're mixing.

"Truth-Masters," would do, oh, so, well, to "Master" their own hearts.***
The self-deceptive treachery springs therefrom. And, it smarts.
Not content to simply worship God, and thereby, show "The Way,"****
"Truth-Masters," lust for power, acclaim. And, thus, throw "Truth," away.

We could go on and on, and talk about '75, and such.
But, what profit would it bring us? When all's said and done, not much.
Ten stanzas of what's now been said, should be more than enough,
To shine a light of needed truth on all "Truth-Masters" stuff.

It all comes down to motive. What's the truly driving force?
What began with motive good enough, now a different-colored horse.
Assessments such as these, of course, are tragic and too sad.
We wanted it to NOT be true. We wanted that so bad!

But, if we are "Truth-Seekers," deep inside, we now must pray,
For strength from God to "Cowboy Up." And, ... What it is: Just Say!
Individuals among "Truth-Masters," we do hope, find repentance.
"Truth-Masters, Inc.," the structure, sadly, has received it's sentence.
__________
*2 Peter 1:16.
**2 Thessalonians 2:11.
***Jeremiah 17:9.
****John 14:6; Acts 19:9, 23.
_______________________________________________________

As brother gogh is fond of saying, ... Christian Love to all truth-seekers, ... iso...

Just to "pile on"...

Here is a 1914 1 minute math lesson:

2007 (current year) - 1914 (alleged "presence) = 93 years

93 X 360 ("jewish" days per year) = 33,480 "Last Days"

So, When the Bible says "Last Days";

DID IT MEAN 33,480 OF THEM ????

Hmmmmm....

:eat:

Prop-You can carve up 1914 like a Thanksgiving day Turkey-Min

PropMin Wrote:

Just to "pile on"...

Here is a 1914 1 minute math lesson:

2007 (current year) - 1914 (alleged "presence) = 93 years

93 X 360 ("jewish" days per year) = 33,480 "Last Days"

So, When the Bible says "Last Days";

DID IT MEAN 33,480 OF THEM ????

Hmmmmm....

:eat:

Prop-You can carve up 1914 like a Thanksgiving day Turkey-Min

Dear Propmin.

I really like your math lesson and sense of logic.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

It seems quite clear that the Governing Body, the leaders of The Watchtower Society haven't learned anything of the 1925 and 1975 fiasco and continue their falsehood, now being forced by the history to postphone their end to 2035.

They can't and do not even listen to Jesus and take his words in concideration, as comes forth in Matthew chapter 24 verse 36:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This is a clear evidence that it is self deluded men, that have placed themselves at Moses chair, since even simple year calculations seems to be difficult for them, which can be seen in the book, "Gentiles Times Reconcidered", by Carl Olof Johnsson, printed at Comentary Press Alanta.

The time will come when Jehovah will say, Enough, but not on basis of self elected and self deluded men, who have maked an organisation to an idol and play masters over His herritage and their faith, strictly in opposition to what comes forth in the Scriptures, 1 Peter chapter 5 verse 3 and 2 Corinthians chapter 1 verse 24:

3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

They wrongly postulate that they are representatives of God and their doctrines are Gods law, where above words of Jesus Christ and Paul, are very good examples of evidence, that they are not.

The men behind The Watchtower Society are power abusers and play masters over others faith, with the sadly result that they have sent thousands and other thousands of spiritual persons, Brothers, Sisters and their Children into a premature death, based at their evil doctrines where they ban vaccinations, organs and the blood.

They have maked the blood to an idol and their doctrines to Gods law, a metaphor for the life, more holy than the life itself, without giving individuals a free choise for medical treatment, but forced the individuals with gross falsehoods, threats and sanctions, into a premature death, as described in Jeremiah chapter 7 verse 31 and chapter 8 verse 8, documented in their public magazine, Awake May 22, 1994.

31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which [is] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded [them] not, neither came it into my heart.

8 How do ye say, We [are] wise, and the law of the LORD [is] with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he [it]; the pen of the scribes [is] in vain.

They have really and as all other false religious leaders bound heavy burdons at people, strictly in opposition to Jesus words and his examples, e.g with the women with the bleedings, as described in Matthew chapter 9 vers 22. Did Jesus condemned and report her, even that she broke the law:

22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

All their lies and hypocrisy, in attempts to protect themselves from legal lawsuits and ones can wonder, who have been acting in question of the UN charter from 1948, which gives religious organisations totally and full freedom without any responsibility. It can't have Jehovah and Jesus Christ acceptance, especially not taking Jesus Christ words in considereation as comes forth in John chapter 8 versus 43-47:

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

It is interesting also to read Jesus words in Matthew chapter 24 versus 48-51:

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; ( 1914, 1925, 1975 and now 2035 )

49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; ( Their doctrines kill Jesus Christ minors )

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The history and Scriptures have proved them wrong and I'm convienced that the history again will show us, also in question of their 144.000 doctrine, where they now are very anchous to count down in the Congregations, because they have placed themselves on the first row and best places in Heaven and in the Kingdom Halls, like the Pharisees, but in opposition to Jesus Christ words, since they haven't heard and can't understand his words to his followers, as comes forth in Acts chapter 1 verse 7:

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

What else can we expect, when we take Jesus words in consideration and not only listen to and have him as reference, as described in Matthew chapter 15 verse 13:

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

PropMin Wrote:

Just to "pile on"...

Here is a 1914 1 minute math lesson:

2007 (current year) - 1914 (alleged "presence) = 93 years

93 X 360 ("jewish" days per year) = 33,480 "Last Days"

So, When the Bible says "Last Days";

DID IT MEAN 33,480 OF THEM ????

Hmmmmm....

:eat:

Prop-You can carve up 1914 like a Thanksgiving day Turkey-Min

Hey, Prop....tried to pm you, doesn't work. Tried to email you, couldn't get in. Tried your "blogspot" site, doesn't exist anymore. So how does one contact you????!!!! :shocked:

Melancholymuse Wrote:

PropMin Wrote:

Just to "pile on"...

Here is a 1914 1 minute math lesson:

2007 (current year) - 1914 (alleged "presence) = 93 years

93 X 360 ("jewish" days per year) = 33,480 "Last Days"

So, When the Bible says "Last Days";

DID IT MEAN 33,480 OF THEM ????

Hmmmmm....

:eat:

Prop-You can carve up 1914 like a Thanksgiving day Turkey-Min

Hey, Prop....tried to pm you, doesn't work. Tried to email you, couldn't get in. Tried your "blogspot" site, doesn't exist anymore. So how does one contact you????!!!! :shocked:

I think you can contact him on Shelter.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Thank you, Bang!:)

Hi Melancholymuse :)

If you Pm me your email I will forward it to my hubby.

Love
Lynn

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