Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Subjectivity and objectivity meanings....

Subjectivity means that our approach is dominated or influenced by our personality’s positions, feelings, reactions, preferences, and judgments.

Objectivity means the absence of all such inner coercive agencies in the presence of an openness that embodies love, sensitivity,...

...

One thing I've learned since joining the internet Christian community is the value of prayer as an act of mercy.

"For the one that does not practice mercy will have [his] judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment." -- James 2:13

Our years in the WT may have caused us to stagnate in this respect. Look at the words of the apostle with regards to prayer for fellow Christians:

"Now we pray to God that YOU may do nothing wrong, not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that YOU may be doing what is fine, though we ourselves may appear disapproved. For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth." -- 2 Corinthians 13:7-8

"We thank God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ always when we pray for YOU, since we heard of YOUR faith in connection with Christ Jesus and the love YOU have for all the holy ones." -- Colossians 1:3-4

"Pray incessantly. In connection with everything give thanks. For this is the will of God in union with Christ Jesus respecting YOU." -- 1 Thessalonians 5:17-18

"To that very end indeed we always pray for YOU, that our God may count YOU worthy of [his] calling and perform completely all he pleases of goodness and the work of faith with power; in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in YOU, and YOU in union with him, in accord with the undeserved kindness of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12

"Therefore openly confess YOUR sins to one another and pray for one another, that YOU may get healed. A righteous man’s supplication, when it is at work, has much force." -- James 5:16

There are so many more examples....but you get the idea. Hear the merciful language and intention directed to fellow believers and think of the comfort that such ones feel, knowing that someone cares enough to remember to pray for them or to thank our Father for their faith and love.

That's all I got to say on that now, but I know that I need to grow in this direction. Jus' sharin'....:P

Love, Rez:love:

I enjoyed those Scriptures .

When we hear of such things happening, we feel powerless to help. Especially when they are circumstances that happen to ones we may not know, or are on the otherside of the world. Yet our Father tells us, not even a sparrow falls without his knowledge. How his heart must hurt, and as the body of Christ, our heart hurts also. We supplicate our Father, and tell him so. The question arrises what does this do?

Notice some of the words in the scriptures above.

Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment." -- James 2:13

Through prayer mercy can exult or triumph over condemnation.

we always pray for YOU, that our God may count YOU worthy of [his] calling and perform completely all he pleases of goodness and the work of faith with power...-2 Thessalonians 1:11-12

The gift of Faith is powerful, and prayers with faith exert much power. Notice what prayers of the rightousness can do.

pray for one another, that YOU may get healed. A righteous man’s supplication, when it is at work, has much force." -- James 5:16

It can lead to the one being prayed for, to be healed. For as James says, faith demonstrated in prayer has much force. This reminds me of Jesus words, 'Your faith has made you well".

James continues:

Jam 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.

Prayer to Father can relieve suffering.

Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

We ask in Prayer to heal sickness. What amazing faith we can have in our Prayers! What is more beautiful is that even when we do not have words to pray, our spirit supplicates to God for us.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. :27 And He searching the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

What peace prayer grants. For with faith we know he hears our every word, and we know he listens to our hearts. We know he will answer them. He has lifted our burden and placed it in his hands once again. For with him the power lies, but our Faith allows his strength to be demonstrated.

We pray for those suffering in India. For all his children. Let his love be glorified.

:heartbeat:
Lynn

Dear Deborah,

Thank you for sharing about the persecutions in India.

How wonderfully brave the Christians are! (and your husband and you, too!) They are being persecuted in Jesus's name.

While I found the stories horrifying and sad, I am also encouraged by the strong faith. I can only pray that I will hold up under such persecution.

You and yours are in my prayers.

With Christian Love, Debbie

Some of the latest news reports regarding the trouble in India.

http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype...wsid=93720

http://www.ucanews.com/2008/09/17/state-...karnataka/

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Yes, where does decision making enter into the picture?

Are we not to be discriminating?

Thank you Freyd. In two short sentences you asked the questions that made the first cut....The surgeon can't operate until he makes that first cut.

Yes, Jesus said:

"“Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU."" -- Matthew 7:1-2

...but he also said:

"“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them."" -- Matthew 7:15-16

How could we "be on the watch" for something if we are forbidden to make a "judgment call", a discriminating decision? We are told to look at the fruitage that an individual is producing and then measure that against the "person and teaching of our Lord Jesus".

In getting the balance between these scriptures there is the principle that it is better to err on the side of mercy since mercy trumps judgment.

"For the one that does not practice mercy will have [his] judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment." -- James 2:13

In light of the above, I personally pray often that I can find my way to mercy by becoming a more merciful person.

Love to all, Rez:grouphug:

I does my best Rez and catch a lot of flack. Thank you. But who are the false prophets?

Hi freyd,

I believe that is a delicate question. Simply put, 2 John 1:8-11 (New Living Translation) puts it this way:

"Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked so hard to achieve. Be diligent so that you receive your full reward. Anyone who wanders away from this teaching has no relationship with God. But anyone who remains in the teaching of Christ has a relationship with both the Father and the Son.

"If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who encourages such people becomes a partner in their evil work."

Having already been once stung by a religious group that pushes ahead, presuming spirit direction or "wanders away from this (Bible) teaching," I am already twice shy. I cut no slack. Even on this board we need not get too cozy with some who come to promote their "wandering" religious dogma. It's all about judging, not the person but the teaching, since it is the teaching that contaminates our worship.

If you are already deeply involved in a religious order, take Jesus sage advice in Matthew 10:16 (Contemporary English Version): "I am sending you like lambs into a pack of wolves. So be as wise as snakes and as innocent as doves." (almost oxymoronish, eh what?:confused:)

Affection,

sw

Of course it's delicate.
That's why there's so much emotional response rather than reason.

Good questions, again freyd!:confused: ...cannot have a discussion without questions:thumbsup:

First of all, I would ask myself whether this was a question to be answered by the individual believer or by the group with which they associate. For those in a Christian fellowship of some sort, this question may have already been decided....i.e. the WT through "the faithful slave" or "spirit-directed organization" (as it has called itself since 1985) may publish statements or guidelines regarding "false prophets".

I, as and individual believer, may have come to a different conclusion due to my own bible study and prayer. However, the WT, if it hears my views, may judge me as a false prophet!

So, I have to ask myself if the WT has overstepped itself in making rulings on every detail of a Christian's life. (We're not talking about basic bible doctrine here.) There is considerable latitude for a Christian conscience in the scriptures. Just a few are mentioned in Romans 14, which is a great chapter on judging and conscience. So, if the WT has overstepped its authority in areas of personal decision, then perhaps I have to use Jesus criteria of "fruits" and judge them as "false prophets".

That the individual believer is encouraged to use his own mind or intellect in making decisions that the bible leaves to him or her, the following scripture makes plain.

"One [man] judges one day as above another; another [man] judges one day as all others; let each [man] be fully convinced in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5

(a few Strong's notes on this scripture to emphasize the personal nature of Christian decision-making.)

JUDGE

OWN

MIND

FULLY CONVINCED

"But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: “‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’” So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God -- Romans 14:10-12

Paul, in the following verses, shows where our focus needs to be....not on judging but in the pursuit of peace.

"Therefore let us not be judging one another any longer, but rather make this YOUR decision, not to put before a brother a stumbling block or a cause for tripping." -- Romans 14:13

"So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace and the things that are upbuilding to one another." -- Romans 14:19

The final cautionary note that Paul leaves us with is addressed to the individual believer and not some person or organization that has set itself in the judgment seat.

"Happy is the man that does not put himself on judgment by what he approves." -- Romans 14:22

Just a few thoughts...:P (sorry for the length of this post:whistle:)

Rez:giverose:

I'm not sure that the emotional response comes from the delicacy of the question as much as from the accusatory opening of this thread. Inexperienced posters are sometimes unaware of how to start an effective discussion. Hopefully this improves over time and with feedback from fellow posters.:D

Point #1:
Never rely on one Scripture to create a doctrine.

Point #2:
Romans 14 mentions repeatedly ceremonial observances (days and what types of foods are "clean"). Not once does it mention anything more than that. In fact, every single example Paul gives has only to do with ceremonial observances and foods.

Yet some people extend this to apply to ALL judgment calls, in spite of passages such as 1 Corinthians 5, which talks about who we should be judging and how.

IOW, the problem is with the poster.
Bull. Resolute, I've personally seen you make judgment calls completely clouded by your dislike of the poster in question. I doubt you remember the particular incident I'm talking about, though: you didn't respond to my questioning your judgment.

It would really help if mediators would mediate instead of side with the side that can be equally accusatory, but has more members in it.

I can confirm your doubt, Peter, I don't remember...not a mind-reader, and, at almost 70 I think I'm entitled to a few memory lapses. Was it important to you?

You are free to question my judgment but I don't have to respond, do I.:D I'm not into warring on the board.

No. I was just hoping you would like feedback on a public judgment which I argued was hypocritical.

But are you into ignoring Biblical responses to your ideas? I certainly hope not!

How do you justify your interpretation of Romans 14 in light of 1 Corinthians 5 and the facts as outlined in my previous post?