Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Please dont respond if your name is joyful or butxifnot. This thread is not for you. I want my responders to use their bible trained conscience to respond, not those weak in faith or conscience.


The Bible contains a large quantity of information about serving in the military. While large portions of the military information contained in the Bible are only analogies, several verses directly relate to this question. No, the Bible does not come out and specifically state “Thou shalt serve in the military;” and in contrast it also does not state “Thou shalt not serve in the military.” At the same time, Christians can rest assured that being a soldier is highly respected throughout the Bible, and know that such service is consistent with a Biblical worldview.

The first example of military service is found in the Old Testament (Genesis 14), when Abraham's nephew Lot was kidnapped by Chedorlaomer, king of Elam, and his allies. Abraham rallied to Lot's aid by gathering 318 trained men of his household and defeating the foreign forces.

Late in its history, the nation of Israel developed a standing army. The sense that God was the Divine Warrior and would protect His people regardless of their military strength may have been a reason why Israel was slow to develop an army. The development of a regular standing army in Israel came only after a strong, centralized political system had been developed by Saul, David, and Solomon. Saul was the first to form a permanent army (1 Samuel 13:2; 24:2; 26:2). Nevertheless, the army had to be supported by food and other supplies from the homes of individual soldiers (1 Samuel 17:17-19).

What Saul began, David continued. He increased the army, brought in hired troops from other regions who were loyal to him alone (2 Samuel 15:19-22), and turned over the direct leadership of his armies to a commander in chief (Joab). Under David, Israel also became more aggressive in its offensive military policies, absorbing neighboring states like Ammon (2 Samuel 11:1; 1 Chronicles 20:1-3). David established a system of rotating troops with 12 groups of 24,000 men serving one month of the year (1 Chronicles 27). Although Solomon's reign was peaceful, he further expanded the army, adding chariots and horsemen (1 Kings 10:26). The standing army continued (though divided along with the kingdom after the death of Solomon) until 586 B.C., when Israel ceased to exist as a political entity.

Jesus marveled when a Roman Centurion (officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The Centurion’s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many Centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5,8,13; 27:54; Mark 15:39,44-45; Luke 7:2,6; 23:47; Acts 10:1,22; 21:32; 22:25-26; 23:17,23; 24:23; 27:1,6,11,31,43; 28:16).

Historically the places and the titles may have changed, but our armed forces should be just as favorably valued as the Centurions of the Bible. Being a soldier was highly revered. For example, Paul describes Epaphroditus, a fellow Christian as a “fellow soldier” (Philippians 2:25). The Bible also uses military terms to describe being strong in the Lord by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20).

Yes, the Bible does address serving in the military, directly and implicitly. The Christian men and women who serve their country with character, dignity, and honor, can rest assured that the civic duty they perform is condoned and respected by our Sovereign God. Those who serve in the military deserve our respect and our thanks.

Agree or disagree?

Just curious. If a converted Roman Centurion was ordered to kill Jesus, or any fellow Christian, by his military commander, should he obey?
:confused:

We see a conflict of interest arise.

Could a similar circumstance arise today with a soldier? :thinking:

----

"Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it." - 1Cor 12:27

"From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in LOVE, as EACH PART does its work." - Eph 4:16
:heartbeat:

Soldiers are told to obey Lawful orders and they are allowed to refuse Unlawful orders....I would think the scenario you mention John would fall under the territory of Unlawful and probably isn't too feasible anyway (at least in the context of one soldier ordered to shoot another soldier either randomly or within the ranks--they take prisoners you know if at all possible)..... :hibye:

All christians are soldiers. We wage a war.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. :4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

We wear armor

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. :12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. :13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

And we carry a sword given to us.

Eph 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Jesus did battle while on earth. But his battle was against darkness, evil and Satan and his demons. We too, as shown in the scripture above have been given that commission by him. We do not wage war with each other. We would die for another. But instead are at peace with our brothers. Remember too, our brothers include our enemies. Our war is with the darkness. We are light and our battle is not of this world. We are no part of this world, it's issues, it's constant shifts like the waves of the sea, to and fro in battles and wars.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."

Joh 17:14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. :15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. :16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. :17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. :18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.

Jesus is who we follow. We are sent into this world as bearers of peace and love. For out of many walks of life, Jesus calls to us. So many of us sinners who needed cleansed. Out of this world, and what we were pursueing in this life,(maybe even a military career) into his world and his work of spreading his kingdom seeds.

With his love to all
Lynn

Well Yannis, you beat me to it. All for the best though, as something weird happened(I think the weirdness was on the part of the operator, rather than the machine:funnyface:) and I lost the post I'd started... so I'll add some thoughts and questions here - thanks for posting it.:D Hopefully we can come to a balanced concept of true Godly principles, with a view to peace and unity of mind within our tiny group of believers. :pray:

Luke 7
The Faith of the Centurion
1 When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6 So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

The first thing I noticed here was the centurian's love for the nation of Israel and his share in building the synagogue. He(a Jew?) was respected enough for elders to volunteer to seek Jesus for him. Being told nothing else about this man, Jesus went immediately to help him. What? No speeches about his obvious 'military sins'?
Other things I noticed are the centurian's humble and respectful attitude, and his complete faith in God's Son. Jesus commended him highly for his faith - and spoke not one word about his 'job'.

I have heard of people in the military, some in high offices even, that resign their posts upon becoming Christian, as that is their conscientious choice, and only their choice to make. Jesus didn't go out searching for people to denouce as sinners - they came to him and he forgave thier sins. (It's the same today) Even the Pharissees pridefully sought him out, their trick questions at the ready - and he didn't hold back from pointing out their hypocracies on many levels. Thing is - he knew people's hearts. That must be why he commended this soldier and denounced the religious leaders - humility vesus pride. We have no such insight about the true intent of others' hearts. Zealousness for the truth is void and empty without the love Jesus showed for all sinners. There is A Way to preach, and Jesus' examples are the perfect ones for us to follow. There are no examples of him commending Christian zealots to preach in any other ways than those he set out in the Gospels. Feed and clothe the poor, comfort the downcast, help the weak; lead the sheep to him and he will deal effectively with their sins.

Romans 13
Submission to the Authorities
1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

I highlighted vs. 4 - does it really say that governmental authorities are God's servants - not Satan's? It sure does. That, in itself, should be instruction enough to prevent us from calling something wicked that God Himself has judged as righteous for His purposes. :thumbup:

1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Far from denouncing the authorities of his day, Paul instructs Christians to pray for them, for they insure our relative national security - and - it pleases God, the Hearer of prayers.

1 Peter 2
Submission to Rulers and Masters
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

Well, this is all about governmental authority... not really about military 'service'. And I'm torn... because I see, and live in, the benefits they offer in this country. Would I ever 'join up'? No, it's not in me and never has been. But others feel differently - and they may actually be God's servants in His grand plan - which we just don't understand the half of! If we condemn them as evil, or workers in league with Satan - we may be guilty of condemning those whom God has specifically chosen to work out His Design. We are unable to separate the person from their individual sins and claim one sin is 'more sinful' than another. Jesus is judge over all for very good reasons!

Titus 3
Doing What is Good
1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. 3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.

Our sins are not less than anothers', and their sins are not less than ours. Sin is sin, but pride is the hardest one to overcome because it so often cloaks itself in self-righteous thinking. In saying that all must come to him like innocent children, Jesus said so much. I've never seen children out searching for people or 'causes' to protest against. Is protest against certain 'sins' a Christian duty above all others, even above our commands to love, be peaceable and respectful to all men? I say no. Vigilantes and religious zealots are produced if we set only one Biblical principle above all the others. The love that is supposed to define who we are in Christ is lost in our single-mindedness.

There's more to the whole story of course - a 'flip side' so-to-speak, but I'm out of time for now. Hope this adds something to the discussion under way.... I'll be back later. :giverose:

Love to you ALL! :grouphug:
Willa :peace:

Another place where God sanctioned death and destruction was when the 2 travelers where assaulted by the benjaminaites "I think" and all the other isrealites rose up against them. because of the 1 woman,


To me it shows that Good character and standing for what is right is more important then even life itself.

Maybe that is just me to see it that way.
I think for those whom I love to watch me stand BY AND DO NOTHING IS more detrimental to the characcer they are and become, then seeing death. and even more so when they see the quality of mercy in all of our dealings from day to day. But at some point pinishment is the only answer. God himself says so.
and if people are so mentally imbalanced so as to resist the police and they perish I believe bible principle say it is on their own head.

AS for the military, I believe the story about thousands dieing for one woman says it all. That is the type of character God wants in us "in my opionion" to stand up for what is right even till death. I cannot see at this point in time another way to interpret God's principle.

we have is so easy in the usa, in the dominican republic due to violent men, we were followed at all times by armed guards. It is terible to have the feeling that you are never secure.

Wow, Willa...great post!

While I was reading about the centurion/army officer I checked with the Insight book which had this to say:

....and I wondered if this man was perhaps Cornelius, since there are similarities.

"Now in Caes·a·re′a there was a certain man named Cornelius, an army officer of the Italian band, as it was called, a devout man and one fearing God together with all his household, and he made many gifts of mercy to the people and made supplication to God continually. Just about the ninth hour of the day he saw plainly in a vision an angel of God come in to him and say to him: “Cornelius!” The man gazed at him and, becoming frightened, said: “What is it, Lord?” He said to him: “Your prayers and gifts of mercy have ascended as a remembrance before God."" -- Acts 10:1-4

Wouldn't that be something if Jehovah chose this man of great faith spoken of in Luke 7, to be the first gentile Christian?

Love, Rez:giverose:

TD...

Right on!:thumbup:

Yannis...thanks for making a place for a balanced discussion of this important topic. I hope to contribute to it soon.

Here is an article by a Former JW regarding military service. Quite an interesting read.

http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/war.html

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

it is a very interesting read Bro Bangalore--thanks for finding that. Balance in all things can be most difficult let alone a complicated issue such as this. And personally that is what I think most here are looking for--a balance-- along with respect for the opinions of each other... :friends:

At the moment, in our imperfect condition, I feel it is like we are trying to maintain balance, whilst standing on one leg with our eyes closed.

vicky

Great thread Yannis :thumbsup:

I love this...

1 corinthians 7

17Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. 23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to.

The bible doesn't show the soldiers abandoning their position or required to do so. As a christian they definitely must have used the Holyspirit to guide their actions. Other than that they gave glory to God just as they were.

Hello all,

I refrained from posting on the subject on the other thread, because it had a lynching mentality instead of one of discussion.

I understand many of the ones viewpoint here. Wanting to refrain from a blanket comdemning of all individuals in the military. I agree with that feeling as I would never want to judge another's heart. And I feel no matter what walk of life we are in, Father can speak to any he wishes to become his child.

With that in mind. I feel that we must remember that as a follower of our lord. We are of Peace. We allow our Father to battle for us. Our loyality belongs to him alone. I have and do pray for the leaders of countries. That we may live in peace, and all the children that live in their countries, that we may continue to have peace in our days, by the decisions they make.

But I also feel, the Bible is clear from where justice comes.

Rom 12:16 minding the same thing toward one another, not minding high things, but yielding to the lowly. Do not be wise within yourselves. :17 Repay no one evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. :18 If it is possible, as far as is in you, being in peace with all men. :19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." :20 Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him. If he thirsts, give him drink. For in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. :21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I am sure that many will disagree with what I say, But I am trying to be respectful in sharing my viewpoint.

With his love
Lynn

Greetings seekers of/for truth.....and salutations :)

Matthew 16:24...

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.
For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds."

Our instructions are clear:

Romans 13:9...

"For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law."

Having and showing respect for our own life and protecting it is "loveing thyself", is it not? Did our Master not protect himself from harm...

John 10:39... "They sought again to take him: and he went forth out of their hand."

Might this not be a demonstration of the appropriateness of protecting our own safety? Is it not reasonable to conclude that it also be very appropriate to protect others from harm? Every situation/circumstance regarding this issue is different and personal. Hopefully by listening to our dear Lord and Exemplar, following in his path closely, praying for Godly discernment and conscience; and endeavoring to grow in faith, that our thoughts, decisions and actions will please our Father by means of Jesus Christ (in some way).


Christian love and appreciation,

gogh

Hi Yannis

Re: "Those who serve in the military deserve our respect and our thanks."

In my view this an.....inaccurate statement. Speak your mind. Do not tell others to have your mindset....please.

A quote: "The troops' motivations for suicide are not known but according to Iraqi sources the servicemen belonged to the 57th Unit of the US Airborne Division that was behind the massacre of several Iraqi families-- mostly women and children--"

16 US troops commit suicide in Iraq

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=688...=351020201

Many that do harm (for whatever reason)...do not respect themselves!

gogh

Yes, sorry about that gogh. I would never want to push my views on others.

To be honest though, when it comes to the sacrifices made by the Allied troops in WWII, this is a VERY accurate statement dont you think?