Hi Yannis,
I think we Christians should be a small group of weird people in a mad world. The weirdness should be an attempt to be anti-mad. When WW2 broke out, or any war come to think of it, nobody really refused to participate. Even men from my own country joined with the historically-hated British Army to fight the greater evil – Hitler.
Nobody thought of letting God show his hand, never mind trusting Him to solve their problems. ‘This problem is too big and too imminent to be left to God’, seemed to be the mindset of Christendom. Imagine if stout-hearted Christians all over the world had refused to serve? What would the result have been - domination by a Germanic race with dreadful long-term plans for humanity? Add Italy with that pompous poppet Mussolini and the imperialism of Japan.
But is that so definite? Do we really believe that God will stay out of our business until kingdom come? As far as I know, no genuine effort has ever been made since pre-Christian times to see what God might do.
I wonder what we make of
(Ecclesiastes 9:11, ESV) Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favour to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all.
in our day? If there is no faith, no confidence, no reliance, what’s left but secular force?
I’m Irish and we’re a cynical bunch. You seem to have what we would call a gung-ho American attitude to the military, yet you look like a Greek pop-star! And yes, I envy the fabulous hair and hope that behind the photo lies a balding middle-aged guy like me! I would guess that you are an American of Greek descent, but obviously I would never know unless you told me. When I lived in America, many of the JW brothers had an ambivalent attitude toward the military. Pro-military and pro-U.S. comments were common enough because the culture was engrained in their consciousness. I got used to the double-think. In Europe, I relate to nationalism when the Irish football team look like they might get somewhere in the European Cup (they never do, though). The Irish Army, although enthusiastic enough, are too tiny to wax lyrical about. So I think it’s in us all to some extent.
If you have no JW background, or have left it behind you, then I guess your supportive attitude towards the army is a completely personal conviction. I don’t get it, and in another way I do. Spiritually, I don’t get it. Culturally, I think I do. But if you have no cultural connection to the American military, I don’t get it at all.
However, there is a lot I don’t understand. You come across as a nice guy, a Christian brother, and I enjoy your posts.
Regards,
Brendan.
Hi Yannis,
You seem to have what we would call a gung-ho American attitude to the military, yet you look like a Greek pop-star! And yes, I envy the fabulous hair and hope that behind the photo lies a balding middle-aged guy like me! I would guess that you are an American of Greek descent, but obviously I would never know unless you told me. When I lived in America, many of the JW brothers had an ambivalent attitude toward the military.
If you have no JW background, or have left it behind you, then I guess your supportive attitude towards the army is a completely personal conviction. I don’t get it, and in another way I do. Spiritually, I don’t get it. Culturally, I think I do. But if you have no cultural connection to the American military, I don’t get it at all.
However, there is a lot I don’t understand. You come across as a nice guy, a Christian brother, and I enjoy your posts.
Regards,
Brendan.
Brenden, boy do you got me pegged, except for the part about balding middle-aged guy :D I am neither, but my hair is much shorter.
I am not gung-ho about the military, i just understand their role in our society. I do feel that Jehovah was behind the defeat of Hitler so in that sense i am grateful for the Allies. Jehovah used them like he used Cyrus.
I have left the WT, in fact, i may soon be DF'd for apostasy so i am reconsidering previously held convictions. Chrisitians in the military is currently my flavor of the week.
To me it's not so black and white anymore. Would i join? Probably not. Would i condemn others for joining? No.
It does seem to go against Jesus teaching of love but isnt it also the loving thing to defend the innocent and defenseless?
That is why i say that is between them and the Lord. He knows their true motive.
I am done trying to judge others. I need to pull the rafter out of my own eye first! :)
Thanks for the nice compliments and likewise.
Cheers! :drinking:
Deborah,
I thought your quote from Corinthians was interesting. It follows how the 1st century Christians viewed war and military service. They were absolutely opposed to war and disallowed Christians from joining the military. However, there is some evidence that they permitted converted soldiers to remain in the army after baptism - provided the did not use the sword, take oaths, or engage in idolatrous practices. (Often they did such in the danger of being executed.)
-Anthony
To me it's not so black and white anymore. Would i join? Probably not. Would i condemn others for joining? No.
Yannis, this is a conscience issue, not to be dictated by any religion. JW's got it right during Hitler's regieme, but that doesn't mean religion can now make rules for us to follow. Each must render an account to God for his own conscience (which is what our baptism is all about) Religion has no bearing on this, but the rule (love your enemy and pray for him), I think does.
I have a former military friend whose church permitted him to wear a uniform. One day he found himself guarding an imprisoned conscientious objector. Of what religion? JW. So my Protestant friend reasoned within himself: "Why am I, a military man of Christian faith, guarding another man who also professes Christian faith, yet is considered a danger to the state while I am not?"
So that was his conscience speaking. Now, while I do not agree that one taking such a stand do so according to some religious teaching, I do agree with the stand taken. On one hand, Paul appreciated what the military did in his behalf, used his (dual) Roman citizenship to his advantage and appealed to Caesar for protection, but that was his conscience. The question is, when the conscience is enlightened, then it's just like this friend of mine who said, "How could I justify staying in the military if that meant guarding Christian conscientious objectors from escaping military custody?"
There's a principle at 1 Corinthians 6:4-6: "Is it true that there is not one wise man among you that will be able to judge between his brothers, but brother goes to court with brother, and that before unbelievers?"
Agape,
sw
Howdy Yannis
Re: "... when it comes to the sacrifices made by the Allied troops in WWII, this is a VERY accurate statement dont you think?"
How accurate your statement is, imo, based on the hypothesis Brendan presented; namely...
"Imagine if stout-hearted Christians all over the world had refused to serve? What would the result have been - domination by a Germanic race with dreadful long-term plans for humanity?"
"Christians all over the world" would include German Christians as well....therefore Hitler's agenda could not have been executed.
Because your question is based on a hypothesis, it is not fairly answerable....imo....
.o2,
gogh
What would the result have been?
"Christians all over the world" would include German Christians as well....therefore Hitler's agenda could not have been executed.
Because your question is based on a hypothesis
Just my :2cents: addendum :read: ...
"What if" hypotheses should be absent from the Christian vocabulary since faith in Christ and his Father negates all "what ifs." Rationalizing trust in military regimes or the absence thereof would surely demonstrate our lack of trust in God.
(and when the penny reads "In God we trust," is that not an oxymoron? :funnyface:)
sw
Not that I want to reopen a can of worms, yuck!!!
But....
Last night, my husband- sixteen year old and I went to a parenting class for teens and parents (my hospitalized son may be home today and joining in the class next week.) We're trying to help our family.
Anyway, the parenting books were donated by the Christian Life Church and the building space was donated by the United Methodist Church. Very interesting.
The speaker was a juvenile officer for the area. Quite frequently, the speaker shared personnal accounts with his own children and foster kids that his family took in. The other personal conversation consisted of his sons involvement in the military. During more than one example he basically praised the military as a good, honorable choice.
I'm used to stauch military advocates. I WAS truly surprised that this was actually taking place during a Christian based parenting class. I wanted to tell the man, after the meeting-,"I would like to thank you for your time teaching us this class. I look forward to the next sessions, and by the way... Don't you think your view on the military is hypocrytical for a Christian based family class?"
Why didn't I? One, I think that I can be abrasive, partially from my JW upbringing. So, coming off too strong works against me. And, this man may be dealing with my difficult son in the matter of days after he is dismissed from the hospital (So, I thought I should wait until the subject was delivered more palatably in the future).
Should I have pounced on this guy immediately for his hypocracy? Should I wait, like I chose, to find the opportune time in the future where the subject may be handled in a softer way?
I thought adding a real life experience to this heated discussion would add value to what the subject is truly supposed to be about.
With Christian Love, Debbie
Hi Debbie,
I have been going over this subject with as many as who are willing to calmly discuss it.
I find that this subject is very touchy. But it seems to be a crucial one.
one may call it hypocracy to be in the military. one could also call it hypocracy to work for the government.
I Think that I would call it hypocracy to rely on any governing institution of any sort. be it police / fire / military, local courts and then condem them as being against GOD's will.
It seems to me that some scriptures indicate that all authority's are allowed at this time by GOD for at least a semblance of protection to some degree.
Without the ideals of freedom of Religion and many other freedoms; beliefs would just be passed down from generation to generation.
NO self searching would be needed. As to What God really wants.
The thing that strikes me with all of this is if we are not able to stand on our own and follow GOD's principles. Then how is this system ever going to conclude? How can such corrupt minds/hearts be held accountable when they have only a partial choice? when presented with the right and wrong of a matter. Jesus bought mankind to redeem us from that which is partial so we may be able to be held accountable for our own actions as far as I can tell.
Why redeem MEN to later reconvict them of the same crime? ignorance.. "forgive them they know not what they do" He said it himself.
we have Faith why?
"Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea" from wiki
God's Idea for mankind to learn and grow and live up to his perfect expectations. Those expectations are not able to be fully realized in this world as far as I can tell.
as some have stated sin is sin. so slander is the same as murder in the sin category.
If we started a ranking system as to which sin is more acceptable to GOD we would be here forever and never reach his answer.