:read:
Is it possible Jesus' return would be as a baby with a birth again? I would say, yes! I will explain a couple of points, yet not trying to push an agenda, just sharing ideas..
It's actually many things put together, so it's not an easy thing to get, also, too because all we, as Christians have ever been taught is the Jesus, floating in on a cloud, idea.
One thing is that on his ride in Rev. 19, he has a sword coming out of his mouth. And then Is. 11, says, he destroys by his mouth and the spirit of his lips. To me, this means, we will hear many judgements from him, with real words during his 3 - 1/2 year battle (Rev. 12) or ride on the white horse, with the bow, and crown during the opening of the 7 seals.
On top of that, he is here, like a 'thief in the night'. A thief is in the house, yet because people in the house are 'asleep', they don't know it. How could Jesus then be here, and battling with the Beast and the kings, and yet, if we are asleep, wouldn't know it? The only thing that makes sense to me, is if he appears like a regular man, like the 1st time.
Another quick point is that, in Dan. 12:1.. Michael/Jesus stands up for us during the great tribulation. It would appear to me, that his battling and Armaggedon would be his 'standing up' for us.. and also his fighting for the new Kingdom to come in and the old, of the Wild Beast's to come to an end. During this time, people wake up, just like when Jesus spoke 2,ooo years ago as in John 5: 28 & 29. It would be pretty hard to stand up for someone, if one wasn't there in person.. IMO
I know, nobody else thinks this, but you wanted my take on it. I would be interested in knowing others take on his return.. :hibye:
Dear New Heart,
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.
My take on it is more like the general norm.
How do the two witnesses fit into your scenario?
I think the scenario where Jesus gives spiritual light to the chosen, and then the sheep and at the end the goats seems to be likely. Now, I think your take on it will be as a physical man, where I took it as a more spiritual happening.
Honestly, because of my training it would be hard for me to except an earthly physical rebirth. To take it a step further, I have had a supernatural experience that bears witness to me for a spiritual presence. Otherwise, a physical experience with a person would have appeared to me. As a JW from infancy, I was taught like most of most, to find fault with anyone who claims to have been chosen. Frankly, I've reached the point where I don't care. I know what happened and I know that I am looking forward to accomplishing what I am commissioned to do. (Arguing about doctorines is not it, so I have decided to be more relaxed during my visits to this forum).
Rereading your post, I would like to ask. When Jesus is seen riding in on the clouds, do you think that this means he will be invisible? I believe that we will visibly see Jesus presence at the right time. That's one reason for the transfiguration (IMO).
FYI-I think one of the hardest obstacles to overcome after an "anointing" experience is the fact that I am an imperfect human. Unless directly guided by holy spirit, my thoughts are just my thoughts. So coming clean about a supernatural experience (which should be a comfort and a help to find others) becomes a situation where I can be judged and condemned for any thought or action that is a product of my human failings.
Thank you again for being available to share your faith and your heart.
With Christian Love, Debbie
Hey NH,
You forgot. I too believe he will walk this earth again.
Not in the same way you have spelled out.
TD
Hello Debbie,
Thanks for your comments.. The 2 witnesses are IMO.. the anointed followers of Christ and God. If we follow the 2 olive trees to Zech., Please note:
Zech. 4:11... NIV Then I asked him, "What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?"
vs. 14 So he said, "These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth."
The fact of there being 2 could be that in Jehovah's law, there has to be 2 witnesses to every matter.
It seems to me, the government of God, is going to be a real tangable thing, that will be ruling on the earth, with a real human, Michael/Jesus. And it will have real laws, and rulings and courts and the like.
You are right, I think about not wanting to argue doctrines.. We are all friends and are getting different ideas, right? Some things, I just keep in the back of my mind that others present, until later clarification.
When I was a witness, I envisioned, the end coming as Jesus floating on cloud, waving to the JW's and killing everyone else. Wow, what a concept... :crybaby:
Now, I think the cloud is symbolic of something.. Over the tabernacle and in the wilderness, the Isrealites knew God was with them, because of the cloud hanging over the tent of meeting. Also, Solomon knew Jehovah was present in temple when a cloud filled the temple.. and also when Moses was up on the mountain, there was a cloud or clouds covering the mountain when Jehovah was there. So from this, I'm surmising that, when Jesus arrives in the clouds, it could mean, that he is coming with Jehovah's spirit engulfing him.
Please note: Ex. 24:15 NIV When Moses went up on the mountain, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD settled on MOunt Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud.
It is hard to have an anointing experience, because we are so imperfect.. :funnyface:
TD Yes, I remember.. what are some of your ideas?
Dear New Heart,
I don't care which way Jesus comes back. I would just like it to happen soon and 'quickly'. The Jews guessed how the Messiah would come and they were off base, so I'll except that I will have to adjust my thinking as events take place.
Thanks for your nice tone, even while disagreeing.
With Christian Love, Debbie
Well to be Frank I have a bad memory and things only come back to me when I get a que from something else,, kinda like how you can hear a note to a song on the radio and you know what is coming on from it.
But at this point I believe we are actually seperated from the source.
the source is God and he is in Heaven, heaven/earth were together in the begining and the break happened, people being evicted from the garden started the seperation in a spiritual sense but I believe also in a physical "universal" way from God. and when all things are put straight again I think we will see Jesus walking among us. And hear our fathers voice very clearly as they did in the garden. As for the return of Jesus I think it is 2 fold that he is already here in spirit and yet will actually return and all who are awake will see him as he trully is. While all others will not recognize him. I think he will be around and God will put his enemy's down at his feet as said in rev..
I think this is going to happen thru the final war.
heb1:6And when He again ®brings the firstborn into (S)the world, He says,
"(T)AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Unless this has been rendered incorectly by the scholars .
I believe it says all I need to repeat.
"when He again " brings the firstborn into (S)the world
Dear New Heart,
I don't care which way Jesus comes back. I would just like it to happen soon and 'quickly'. The Jews guessed how the Messiah would come and they were off base, so I'll except that I will have to adjust my thinking as events take place.
Thanks for your nice tone, even while disagreeing.
With Christian Love, Debbie
Don't blame you at all! ;)
John 17:4...
"I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.
Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee:
for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received them, and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:
and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them.
And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are."
Our Master's request is clear...."glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
Where in scripture is indication that Jesus would change his request/desire to be with his Father and become human...again?
Christian love,
gogh
:read:
Hello dear friends..
Debbie, it will be so wonderful when the 'revealing' is complete..and everyone knows who's in charge.. and the corrupt systems will be gone.. :cheer:
TD.... to be 'FRANK', LOL
you said,
But at this point I believe we are actually seperated from the source.
I like the scripture, about the tent of God, being with mankind.. You know, I'll bet it's talking about the 'tent of meeting'.. from the old days.. (Rev. 21:1-4)
I like, also your point about heaven and earth being together.. cool. :ok:
you said:
Jesus I think it is 2 fold that he is already here in spirit and yet will actually return and all who are awake will see him as he trully is.
Yes, this is kinda my point.. He's already been with us in spirit for 2,000 years, so it would seem like a presence, would have to not just be in 'spirit' anymore, but a real physical thing..
Hi Gogh: You said..:
Where in scripture is indication that Jesus would change his request/desire to be with his Father and become human...again?
What do you think of this scripture?
Heb. 9: 28 NIV so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
In the scripture you quoted in John 17.. Jesus said: 'I am no more in the world'.. which I believe was true to the listeners at the time.. As he didn't say, 'I will never be in the world again'..
Hi New Truth
Re: "...and he will appear a second time..."
Is this scripture not consistent with..."And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory."
Manifestation of our Lord Jesus does not necessarily mean a returning "in the flesh", imo.
Mark13:24...
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
more detail:
1Thessalonians 4:16...
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Christian love,
gogh
John 17:4...
"I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.
Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee:
for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received them, and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:
and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them.
And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are."
Our Master's request is clear...."glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
Where in scripture is indication that Jesus would change his request/desire to be with his Father and become human...again?
Christian love,
gogh
Dear Gogh,
I believe Jesus will be in a spirit form not a human. Wasn't it clear? I just expressed that because we are all projecting prophecy with our own imperfect minds that I would except any differences that may occur (lest be left out like the pharisees and saducees). I have faith that the holy spirit will direct me in the right path because I believe Jehovah loves me. Without Jehovah's love, I would be more pitiful than I am now.
Personally, I think that some excercise faith without any harmful intentions. I know I have changed my thoughts to see the other side and ran beck to my original thoughts or made adjustments. It's part of the beauty of expressing ourselves and sharing scriptures, insight, and groping for our individual salvation.
I haven't been on the forum long enough or read anybody's threads long enough to make any opinions on individual's agendas. For now, I think that's better. I don't want to practice being narrow minded unless I feel its for righteousness sake. I believe that the holy spirit would direct me in that, also.
Okay?:heartbeat:
With Christian Love, Debbie
PS. I believe the scriptures say that there will be a new form of creatures, a new race. I think that this new race may be more visible than the spirit creatures that we know of now. I would expect Jesus to lead with a form that all could see when the time is appropriate. So, I do not believe in an everlasting, invisible presence. Just my thoughts at this time.
With Christian Love, Debbie
PS. Is there a spell check around here?
Hi Gogh,
I have never pushed this subject before with you,
But I have a question to you about the scripture I quoted.
what does the phrase "when he again brings the first born into the world" mean.
If this bothers you let me know and i won't pursue it.
what does the phrase "when he again brings the first born into the world" mean.
I'll have a go at it Frank, after brother Gogh, tho'. :giggle:
PS. Is there a spell check around here?
Hi Debbie! :wave: I WISH! Half of my time posting is in correcting my mistakes before hitting the 'send' button - and even then I make glaring errors. I'm too picky about it I guess - OCD rears it's ugly head:funnyface:, lol. We're among friends here tho', so usually they know what was meant and cut us some extreme slack! :grouphug: I keep Mirriam Webster close to my side, lol.
Oh - and by "new creatures" are you talking about the "new creation"?
:cheer:I'm sooo glad you're here Debbie, to share with us - I know you have a LOT to share and exchange! I'll pm you soon, sis!
:giverose:Love from Willa
:peace:
Howdy TD
Re: ""when he again brings the first born into the world"
When our Master takes full control for a thousand years...(imo...at this moment...grin)
Re: "If this bothers you let me know and i won't pursue it."
Nope.
Grin.
gogh