09-03-2008, 10:52 AM
Our Sister Willa -- what would we do without "you"!!
Thank you!
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...9#pid44179
I so agree with you Hitomi - it's an on-going process, a constant struggle to conform our fleshly minds and bodies to the mind and life of Christ. That some have more of a struggle than others is undeniable.
I've been wanting to post on this... don't know where to start, but here I go...
Something that went unmentioned - I think - didn't re-read the whole thread - is abstinence. There's a reason for the Christians I know, who happen to be homosexual, to choose to abstain from sex.
Brian is abstinent, and there must be a reason for that. Could it be because he really is trying to overcome the flesh he was given? And aren't we all trying to do the same?
But he's also trying to figure out "Why". That's the BIG question for all those so-affected - and their families who love them. My nephew's struggle as a Christian was terribly hindered by 'friends' who wanted him to be the way he was before("You can't change!")... but his journey was harmed even further by 'good Christians' who wouldn't help him along the way to remain true to his avowed abstinence and new life in Christ - because they still viewed him as unworthy of their efforts. Some people still think gayness will "rub off" on you!
So there he was - a young man with so much hope, so much good(ask anyone, he was a loving, generous and charitable person, regardless) - but those he sought guidance from(the churches) revealed their true hearts by rejecting him before he even got started. personna non grata. He needed and wanted Christ in his life so much - but was stumbled away from him by everyone else who said "Jesus can't love you- abstinent or not, you admit you're gay!" gasp! They were waiting for him to fail - expecting it. He couldn't avoid that reaction - and he saw the truth of their real thoughts in their eyes. That's why so many want-so-bad-to-be Christians feel there's no place in this world for them, and they're labeled 'unsaveable', eternally damned, doomed - no matter what they do or don't do. Being that they can't change 'what' they are, they would rather die and be at peace than struggle against not only their own flesh, but everyone else's fleshly opinions and judgements. I understand that, sadly.
This is what Brian was talking about, in part, I think - that he is rejected from Christianity in general, even though abstinent, because he admits he was born homosexual. There's no recourse except abstinence, and he has taken that step towards Christ. We should rally behind his sacrificial effort instead of walking on him to get ourselves an inch closer to the heavens.... imho.
It's not a sin to be born homosexual any more than it's a sin to just be born into this world ravaged by Adamic sin - we're all under Adam's sin in every way, everyday - but it's not a sin to be born!
I am not who I once was without Christ - who is? Once we come to know that salvation through Jesus is really offered to even us - we take appropriate steps. Every day it's step by step. And our every effort towards Christ is hampered by the pitfalls of our flesh, and even more so by others'.
I love Brian as a brother. I know his efforts and his heart. He is trying to find out "why"... but my dear brother, I don't think we'll find the answer - yet. My nephew and his family have scoured the Scriptures for some insight - and for the time being there is none. I correct you with love when I say - some of the ones you posted just don't say, I feel, what you want them to say. I do understand your angst, though, as much as I can being who I am - and I understand your need for answers that aren't there. It would settle our minds about the 'whys' of it... but there're so many things we don't and can't know 'why' or even 'how'- yet. But we can't forget what we do know to search out the unknown or unanswerable. That's Don Quixote fighting windmills. For the time being "it is what it is" I'm afraid.
Sometimes I think we feel the need to justify our flershly selves and we shouldn't do that - but we all try to in one way or another. God's Word - His perfect Law - only incriminates us - all of us - and proves beyong a doubt that we can't justify or excuse ourselves of our inborn sin. That's it's purpose in leading us to Christ. We can't come to him until we recognise what sins keep us from him, and keep us separated from God. That's why our fleshly selves must DIE in order to LIVE in Christ - there's nothing about the fleshly self IN him. We know - in our heart of hearts we KNOW what sins convict us.... unless it's pride, 'cause pride keeps itself disguised and well-hidden. PRIDE is what felled Sodom and Gomorrah, not homosexuality - pride in all it's inglorious forms. Big cities are renowned for inglorious forms of all flavors of idolatry. It's why I love the country...
Many Christians choose abstinence for other reasons too - like widow(er)s or divorced ones. Is it fair that their mate left them prematurely to fend for themselves? No - nothing in this world is "fair". If they take Paul's advice not to remarry, then it's a sacrifice of self. Or the person who can't find a good marriage mate, so they resign themselves to 'singlehood'. Horrendous and painful accidental deaths happen every second - is that fair when some go peacefully in their sleep? Or how about ones born mentally-retarded - who JWs claim can't inherit the Kingdom because they don't understand - like animals they can't worship Jehovah properly. (I about cried when a sister related that to me! That does NOT sound like the God I love.)
It's all a sacrifice of self, and all Christians are called to do it. We just have different self-sacrifices to offer - but we all sacrifice something for our love of God and His Word. We're the same, though different. If we take a good long look in the mirror and ask ourselves if we're 'better' than another Christian because we do do this or don't do that - then we're seeking the lowest common denominator - self. Beating someone else down to raise our self reflection. Our God wants more than that - He wants us to consentrate on being the best we can be. All we can really offer Him is ourselves - we truly own nothing else and He wants nothing more. That's why "love covers a multitude of sins" - it's HIS way, not ours... and sometimes it's hard for us to let go of our own self-righteousness long enough to realize how very true that simple statement is - Love covers it. Don't we believe that? Don't we believe Jesus died for the entire world, or just for us 'good ones'?
An internet forum is not a congregation to be cleansed. It's a room without windows.
Scenario --- You walk into a room and see some people you don't want to hang around with - what do you do? Do you walk out and seek another room with people who are more acceptable to you? Or do you stay in the first room and shout at everyone to get out because you've entered the room and don't want their company? Some of you have found 'another room' - so why are you standing in this room yelling at the top of your lungs?
Sometimes I just don't understand people... in general(men in particular!) It's part of my own sacrifice of self to let go of trying to understand and just love 'em anyway, warts and all, like God loved me first, when I was really really drowning in sin. It's really hard to do sometimes, and sometimes I fail - but I always get back up and try some more. There is ALWAYS hope, like He had such hopes for me.
The problem's not solved by our few words and quoted scriptures. It is what it is. But it's not a threat to anyone's 'security', that's for sure.
I really do love you all - warts, boils, dandruff, ingrown toenails, yellow teeth and all. We're all struggling towards the same goal, aren't we.
ps - sorry so long... it flowed... :friends:
Thank you!
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...9#pid44179
I so agree with you Hitomi - it's an on-going process, a constant struggle to conform our fleshly minds and bodies to the mind and life of Christ. That some have more of a struggle than others is undeniable.
I've been wanting to post on this... don't know where to start, but here I go...
Something that went unmentioned - I think - didn't re-read the whole thread - is abstinence. There's a reason for the Christians I know, who happen to be homosexual, to choose to abstain from sex.
Brian is abstinent, and there must be a reason for that. Could it be because he really is trying to overcome the flesh he was given? And aren't we all trying to do the same?
But he's also trying to figure out "Why". That's the BIG question for all those so-affected - and their families who love them. My nephew's struggle as a Christian was terribly hindered by 'friends' who wanted him to be the way he was before("You can't change!")... but his journey was harmed even further by 'good Christians' who wouldn't help him along the way to remain true to his avowed abstinence and new life in Christ - because they still viewed him as unworthy of their efforts. Some people still think gayness will "rub off" on you!
So there he was - a young man with so much hope, so much good(ask anyone, he was a loving, generous and charitable person, regardless) - but those he sought guidance from(the churches) revealed their true hearts by rejecting him before he even got started. personna non grata. He needed and wanted Christ in his life so much - but was stumbled away from him by everyone else who said "Jesus can't love you- abstinent or not, you admit you're gay!" gasp! They were waiting for him to fail - expecting it. He couldn't avoid that reaction - and he saw the truth of their real thoughts in their eyes. That's why so many want-so-bad-to-be Christians feel there's no place in this world for them, and they're labeled 'unsaveable', eternally damned, doomed - no matter what they do or don't do. Being that they can't change 'what' they are, they would rather die and be at peace than struggle against not only their own flesh, but everyone else's fleshly opinions and judgements. I understand that, sadly.
This is what Brian was talking about, in part, I think - that he is rejected from Christianity in general, even though abstinent, because he admits he was born homosexual. There's no recourse except abstinence, and he has taken that step towards Christ. We should rally behind his sacrificial effort instead of walking on him to get ourselves an inch closer to the heavens.... imho.
It's not a sin to be born homosexual any more than it's a sin to just be born into this world ravaged by Adamic sin - we're all under Adam's sin in every way, everyday - but it's not a sin to be born!
I am not who I once was without Christ - who is? Once we come to know that salvation through Jesus is really offered to even us - we take appropriate steps. Every day it's step by step. And our every effort towards Christ is hampered by the pitfalls of our flesh, and even more so by others'.
I love Brian as a brother. I know his efforts and his heart. He is trying to find out "why"... but my dear brother, I don't think we'll find the answer - yet. My nephew and his family have scoured the Scriptures for some insight - and for the time being there is none. I correct you with love when I say - some of the ones you posted just don't say, I feel, what you want them to say. I do understand your angst, though, as much as I can being who I am - and I understand your need for answers that aren't there. It would settle our minds about the 'whys' of it... but there're so many things we don't and can't know 'why' or even 'how'- yet. But we can't forget what we do know to search out the unknown or unanswerable. That's Don Quixote fighting windmills. For the time being "it is what it is" I'm afraid.
Sometimes I think we feel the need to justify our flershly selves and we shouldn't do that - but we all try to in one way or another. God's Word - His perfect Law - only incriminates us - all of us - and proves beyong a doubt that we can't justify or excuse ourselves of our inborn sin. That's it's purpose in leading us to Christ. We can't come to him until we recognise what sins keep us from him, and keep us separated from God. That's why our fleshly selves must DIE in order to LIVE in Christ - there's nothing about the fleshly self IN him. We know - in our heart of hearts we KNOW what sins convict us.... unless it's pride, 'cause pride keeps itself disguised and well-hidden. PRIDE is what felled Sodom and Gomorrah, not homosexuality - pride in all it's inglorious forms. Big cities are renowned for inglorious forms of all flavors of idolatry. It's why I love the country...
Many Christians choose abstinence for other reasons too - like widow(er)s or divorced ones. Is it fair that their mate left them prematurely to fend for themselves? No - nothing in this world is "fair". If they take Paul's advice not to remarry, then it's a sacrifice of self. Or the person who can't find a good marriage mate, so they resign themselves to 'singlehood'. Horrendous and painful accidental deaths happen every second - is that fair when some go peacefully in their sleep? Or how about ones born mentally-retarded - who JWs claim can't inherit the Kingdom because they don't understand - like animals they can't worship Jehovah properly. (I about cried when a sister related that to me! That does NOT sound like the God I love.)
It's all a sacrifice of self, and all Christians are called to do it. We just have different self-sacrifices to offer - but we all sacrifice something for our love of God and His Word. We're the same, though different. If we take a good long look in the mirror and ask ourselves if we're 'better' than another Christian because we do do this or don't do that - then we're seeking the lowest common denominator - self. Beating someone else down to raise our self reflection. Our God wants more than that - He wants us to consentrate on being the best we can be. All we can really offer Him is ourselves - we truly own nothing else and He wants nothing more. That's why "love covers a multitude of sins" - it's HIS way, not ours... and sometimes it's hard for us to let go of our own self-righteousness long enough to realize how very true that simple statement is - Love covers it. Don't we believe that? Don't we believe Jesus died for the entire world, or just for us 'good ones'?
An internet forum is not a congregation to be cleansed. It's a room without windows.
Scenario --- You walk into a room and see some people you don't want to hang around with - what do you do? Do you walk out and seek another room with people who are more acceptable to you? Or do you stay in the first room and shout at everyone to get out because you've entered the room and don't want their company? Some of you have found 'another room' - so why are you standing in this room yelling at the top of your lungs?
Sometimes I just don't understand people... in general(men in particular!) It's part of my own sacrifice of self to let go of trying to understand and just love 'em anyway, warts and all, like God loved me first, when I was really really drowning in sin. It's really hard to do sometimes, and sometimes I fail - but I always get back up and try some more. There is ALWAYS hope, like He had such hopes for me.
The problem's not solved by our few words and quoted scriptures. It is what it is. But it's not a threat to anyone's 'security', that's for sure.
I really do love you all - warts, boils, dandruff, ingrown toenails, yellow teeth and all. We're all struggling towards the same goal, aren't we.
ps - sorry so long... it flowed... :friends: