Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

This occured to me the other day.

Many believe in some form of Heaven or other worldly experience..
that it is some place other then here where we began.. or a similar type environment.

I say to any who might want to talk about it. If we Die and went to heaven or go to heaven to wait or are ever in heaven in the future. "heaven being somewhere else"
Why would Jesus return at all?
Man will eventually Kill evry living thing on this planet. God has even said sooo. he said if he didn't cut the time short no flesh would be saved.
Ok if people Die and go to heaven or will go to heaven in the future. Then let the world get destoyed and all who are sheep just get resurected and go to heaven done deal. Why say you are going to CUT the time short to save Flesh?
And what point is Jesus return?is it proving that God has vengence and is going to detroy them before they destroy themselves? makes no sense to me. the only way it makes sense to me is if he Comes back to save the world and it's fleshly inhabitants.
Peace

There are many passages about the believer being in Heaven but one of the clearest has to be 2 Corinthians 5

Assurance of the Resurrection
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent( Our current body ), is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands,( Heavenly body ) eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked ( the soul and Spirit are contained in the Heavenly body ) . 4 For we who are in this tent ( Earthly body )groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed ( without a body ), but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life ( that death will be defeated by Eternal Life ). 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.( sealed by the Holy Spirit )
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

( while alive in this body the Believer is not with the Lord Jesus and we see Him by faith but the Believer would much rather be absent from this body and present with Him )

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. ( whether here in this body or in Heaven in a Heavenly one with Him we should live please Him)


Now as for Jesus and His return and the Purpose of it. It is to take his Sheep away before the great Tribulation which will come upon the earth so that the wrath of God will not come upon them.

( 1 thess 1:10 )
10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

In His first incarnation He came as the Lamb who laid down His life enduring the wrath of God for our sins.

In His return He comes as the Lion of the tribe of Judah in a time known as "the time of Jacob's trouble"

The purpose A. to have the wrath of a Holy God fall upon the ungodly and B. to turn the hard hearts of the children of Israel back to God.

Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:


“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Well at least that's a start at such a deep topic.

" In Christ "

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

The Official teaching of the Catholic Church and 90% of all Protestant and Evangelical Faiths is that Christ will Return to this earth and Christians will live here.

A brief time in heaven is called the 'intermediate state' after which the Faithful Return with Christ to restore this earth to a paradise.

see-
http://www.Advent.org
Westminster Theological Seminary
Dallas Theological Seminary

designs

Hi Designs, your web site link is not what you thought.

DP, as always good to see ya man.. Is heaven really only in our mind?
I hope not! IT would leave a big Question as to how God's will is being done there? "Lord's prayer"

NT I am on the same line as you one hope. I think there is more thou.
I think we have the beggining and the ending given to us and we are somewwhere in the middle.

And BB,

I think that your way of thinking is similar to what I have thought before, I just think that so much was left unsaid that My intial statement.
Why would Jesus return at all?

A Still is Valid ?.

Granted God may send him back so that all who are destroyed will know that he exists. But that strikes me funny. We already have a death sentence from birth. If we never get to know God then that sentence is carried out and that could be the end of the matter. God would seem to be paying back more then a normal amount to some who don't know him by making life "hell" during the tribulation then destroying them anyway. Also that would negate the need for the end of the millenium in my mind. as I stand now. could change going forward.
Death sentence number one would be paid plus great tribulation for their crimes. seems to me that it is what most live nowadays anyway the expectation of death. IT also seems to me that would give a reason why people do whatever in this life that makes it comfortable for them. because they have no HOPE!! knowing they have only death to look forward too.

It seems to me that if we are to be away from the earth "IE Heaven" and with our Lord. that him coming Back with an army just to destroy people who are more then capable of exterminating themselves seems redundant at the very least. and if it was to cause great pain before extermination that would just seem wrong. When the bible clearly says repay evil for evil to know one.

I am not arguing that HE is not somewhere or in some form that we just can't see or understand at the moment. I am just saying that if it is apart from the physical earth why not just say so? and again why come back to the physical earth in any form? why not Let the HS spirit do it's thing and when we die seperate us. some to heaven others to nothingness or judgement whichever it is.

Good to see you too, brother!


"Mind" in my thoughts means "universe" -- the sum total of all Consciousness that makes up the "Mind" through creation all the way to God.

"My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."



Answer to BIG QUESTION --> Gods Will is done in the "Mind" - in Heaven and on earth.

If Heaven is a state of "Mind" -- which I believe to be true -- it implies there are other states, of which are of lesser vibration that than which is designated as "Heaven".

"Heaven" is therefore, a state of "Mind" -- the highest vibration, its where God resides and is also manifest as Gods Kingdom.


"Do people go to Heaven?"

All the time. ;)

I know where you are coming from I do see the corelation yet heaven on earth cannot be only when all minds are raised up. as God has angels where do they reside? They apparently could manifest themselves at some point in human history? I would say that they came from heaven? is their many heavens? Yes probably soo..
So I think that God's will is done where ever the angels reside in that "heaven" or place not all things are metaphors in the bible. a very great many are. but not all. Manna came from heaven also, was it only in the isrealites mind? we cannot say they themselves manifested it as they never seen any such thing before and we cannot do anything that has not been done by God already..

John 8:21...

"He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come.
The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come?
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

John 14:25...

"These things have I spoken unto you, while yet abiding with you.
But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful.
Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.
And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe."

...

Hi Gogu,

Would you comment with your own words?

Thank you.

h

Hi joyful

Yes, I will speak, briefly

Our Lord Jesus was sent from His/our Father. Our Master returned to His/our Father. Jesus referred to His Father being in heaven. (Matthew 6:9..."After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.")

How can heaven be a state of mind? when scriptures indicate otherwise.

John 7:33 Jesus therefore said, Yet a little while am I with you, and I go unto him that sent me.
Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, ye cannot come."

Our Master will return. From where?. From the Father (YHVH) in heaven, imo.


Christian love,

gogh

Thank you Gogu, I agree.:)

hitomi

No bro it's the other way around. Mainstream catholics and protestants consider the heaven as their final destination. Iam a protestant. Right from sunday school that's the concept being taught. The songs, theology and everything encourages and creates a desire to go to heaven. Most of the hymns are about the hope of heaven. This is one of the popular hymns. This is sung both in catholic and protestant churches.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=4ndMZqT6i4I

This world is not my home
This world is not my home, I'm just passing through.
My treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue.
The angels beckon me from Heaven's open door
And I can't feel at home in this world anymore.

Chorus
O Lord you know I have no friend like you
If Heaven's not my home, then Lord what will I do?
The angels beckon me from Heaven's open door
And I can't feel at home in this world anymore.

They're all expecting me and that's one thing I know.
My Savior pardoned me and now I onward go.
I know He'll take me through, though I am weak and poor.

Chorus
O Lord you know I have no friend like you
If Heaven's not my home, then Lord what will I do?
The angels beckon me from Heaven's open door
And I can't feel at home in this world anymore.

Just up in Glory Land we'll live eternally.
The Saints on every hand are shouting victory.
Their song of sweetest praise drifts back from Heaven's shore
And I can't feel at home in this world anymore.

Chorus
O Lord you know I have no friend like you
If Heaven's not my home, then Lord what will I do?
The angels beckon me from Heaven's open door
And I can't feel at home in this world anymore

This is a poem I wrote almost two weeks back. I was thinking about what we were before coming to the world and what we have become. It's about how love unified us and how this love would take us to the destination. That's the only common factor before and after. nothing else matters.

Forgive my grammatical errors. English is not my mother tongue ;)

I the body, I the ego and I the Love
Sometimes Iam a spectator
Watching myself Act,React and Pass through life
The world doesn't make sense
Clothed in discriminations, rules and boundaries
What is true is the spirit within
Not the race, the sex or the intellect

My spirit overpowers and bursts
When I see myself judged
And I shudder, strong ebbs of emotion strangling my veins
I burn, I cry as I remember the glory of what I was
A memory, a design, pure unsurpassing love
In my Master's heart

I yearn to leave this pseudo life
And be the light in His heart again
Away from the boundaries, the blood and the toil
Away from the known knowledge serving as traps

My friend don't you understand
Don't you see what we were once
And what we will be in our saviour's arms
Don't let the world squeeze it's walls between us
The distant hope is not so distant if only we know us



(Eph 1:3,4
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.)

beautiful saji :friends:

..to hold a new born baby is to feel all these hopes and dreams and possibilities..... :love: :heartbeat:

love you sis ... :happyheart: