Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi wick I saw this and just wanted to give a couple references to this question.

I'll get to it when I have a little more time.

Hi BB, Well, again you're mocking us with simplistic reasoning and taking shots at the WT. You know, you might find that there's actually some intelligent articles if you just stop reading only for the bad stuff. We've already learned where the WT is wrong. It when guys like you start ragging on everything the WT says that I smell a rat ... or should I say, a canine in the fold.

The reason we're here is because we've already learned most of the man-made doctrine. It's the broken trust we've found to be the greatest challenge. You, on the other hand, have snuck in under the pretense of helping us poor little misled sheep but all you're really doing is re-introducing previously debunked theories. I think most here are being nice to you but I doubt many will be buying much of your merchandise.

I will state it again. You say HS is a person because it has personified adjectives referencing God. Yet you do not accept that the wisdom of Proverbs 8 personifies Christ. You arbitrarily accept one and reject the other because you need to satisfy a preconceived doctrine. To me, this is not about proof. It's about your intent. It's about your need to have us believe what you believe to validate your belief, and that's not a reason.

sw

I think some modern churches have forgotten what the Hebrew and Greek words for God's spirit really mean - it's so easy to lose the real meaning if we're encouraged to envision a separate entity of ghostly countenance.
The holy spirit is of God and from God - but imho it is never separate from God, and although He gives it to whomever He pleases, He is never disconnected from it. It pleased Him to give it to His Son, so that now the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ is from the same and only source of holy spirit, Almighty God. It's our real-time connection with Him and Jesus Christ.:D
It cannot be an equal and separate entity that is apart from God, as the trinity doctrine superimposes, for it is His breath. I don't have any trouble understanding it is "from God", "of God" or even "as God", because He uses it to speak and act. To lie to the holy spirit is to lie to God, yes. My trouble is when it's presented as a separate divine being that is to be worshipped equally as God. It's not a god unto itself and it's not equal and apart from the One to Whom it belongs. There is only one God, but He uses whatever and whomever He chooses to represent Himself - His spirit, His Son, His angel messengers, and His people.

Do we understand all the ways He uses His holy spirit? Not in the least... it's no use to battle over the trinity concept, really. It's a man-made doctrine that intended to define the indefinable - I understand the intent. However, in the course of time that doctrine has caused such ill effects - condemnation and persecution by 'the true church'; murderous, torturous deaths; division, hatred and confusion - rather than provide a simply understood explanation of the 'unsearchable God'.

Maybe this will help?
-from the 2001 Bible translation site-

Holy Spirit
What is God’s Breath?
The words that many Bibles translate as ‘Spirit’ or ‘Ghost’ are Ruach (in Hebrew) and Pneuma (in Greek), and both words mean (and should be translated as) Breath or Wind. However, the Bible also occasionally uses these words to mean a person’s attitude or leaning, where the words breath and wind would make no sense in English, so in such places we have left it translated into the Latin word for Breath, Spirit (spiritu).

What is God’s Breath? We simply don’t know, because the Bible tells us so little about it. Yet, some have concluded that it is one of the personalities of God in part of ‘the Holy Trinity.’ They have drawn this conclusion from Jesus’ words at Matthew 28:19, where he told his disciples, ‘So, go and make disciples in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and [God’s] Holy Breath,’ and also from the fact that that the Breath is often referred to in the Bible with the personal pronoun he.

Yet, the fact that God’s Breath is mentioned so many times, and (except for this one instance in Matthew 28, which may well be a spurious addition to the Bible) is never mentioned in conjunction with God and Jesus together, makes such a conclusion presumptuous. Also, notice what Peter said about Jesus and God’s Breath at Acts 2:33, ‘He was lifted to God’s right hand, where he received the Holy Breath (which the Father had promised). And he’s the one who has poured out all of this that you’re seeing and hearing.’

So, as Peter said, Jesus wasn’t part of the personality of God’s Holy Breath, it was something that he received from God and then poured it out on his Apostles during Pentecost. So, God’s Breath likely refers to His power.

We do know, from the account in Genesis 1, that God used His Breath to create the heavens and the earth. And the ‘breath of life’ that we all have from God, may be part of His breath, for notice what God said at Genesis 6:4 (when He was talking about the unrighteous people who lived before the Downpour): ‘Then Jehovah God said, I won’t allow them to keep My Breath (which allows them to be flesh) throughout the [rest of] the age.’

So, if God’s Breath keeps us alive, and we all have it, then perhaps the breath of life is a part of His Holy Breath.

Later, we read of how God used His Breath to give special powers to many of His servants throughout the ages. And although this apparently gave those individuals superhuman powers, its most important use was in creating the Bible. For, we read at 2 Timothy 3:16, 17, ‘All the Scriptures are inspired by God and are good for teaching, for correcting, for setting things straight, and for providing righteous discipline. They qualify a man of God and provide him with whatever he needs to do all sorts of good work.’

Notice that, although the Greek word pneuma (Spirit or Breath) wasn’t used in the above scripture, it is found in the related word TheoPneustos, or God Breathed, which we have translated as inspired by God. Translating pneustos as inspired is particularly appropriate, since the word in/spired means breathed in. So, any time we refer to a particular work, person, or act as inspired, we are really implying that it came from the Breath of God.

God’s Breath in Ancient Times
Many of the ancient Hebrew Judges or Prophets were given a special portion of God’s Breath and were able to perform great things as the result. And although many other faithful men obviously received it, it wasn’t always specially mentioned.

The first man who is actually mentioned as having God’s Breath was faithful Joseph (the son of Jacob). His ability to interpret dreams was mentioned by the Pharaoh of Egypt as making him a man who had ‘the Breath of God’ (Genesis 41:38).

Then God Himself said that He had filled the men who took the lead in building His Tent in the desert, along with all its clothing and utensils, with His Breath (at Exodus 31:3).

Thereafter, Moses referred to Joshua as ‘a man who has God’s Breath’ at Numbers 27:18, but even the evil Prophet Balaam was said to have received it (at Numbers 23:6).

We next read of men who had God’s Breath when referring to the special powers that the Judges of Israel received, such as Gideon, Jephthah, and Sampson. Then there were the Prophets and some of the faithful kings who received special powers by God’s Breath.

So, as you can see, the powers of God’s Breath didn’t just come along on Pentecost of 33-C.E.

:peace:

Hi Wick, You seem to be avoiding answering the queations? Instead making personal comments. Oh well. If you would care to answer theses questions we could move on to Prv. 8

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

1 Tim 1:4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Has the WT ever done that?

Matt 7:15
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

Lets see who comes to you, yes right to your door looking like a righteous person in the suit and tie with a Bible (or should we call it a book since that what they are "Publishers" )


Deut 18:20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name (Yes Jehovah's Name), which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD ( Jehovah), if the thing does not happen or come to pass,( Armagedon 1914,15.18 1975 ) that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

When you point a finger 3 point back[/quote]

I talked about the Holy Spirit with my husband last night. Raised Baptist and has Penecostal sister that he lived with for extended times.
My husband thinks of it as Jesus's ghost. That was very strange to me and made me want to laugh. But, I can understand hearing the ghost word as a child and the imagination that can go with it.
Well, I don't believe that Jehovah has to be two Gods, and I believe the holy spirit is his force. So it would be redundant. Why would the spirit groan? Would it be any different than our spirit groaning with Jehovah's spirit?


Dear BB,

Funny about the Fireproof suggestion. I went to a chuch Sunday because of it. I mentioned my experience on another thread.
Most of us here already know that the WTBTS has proven itsself a false prophet. Contending a WTBTS doctorine error would be moot here.

With Christian Love, Debbie

I soooo agree with your statement there, Debbie

Surely the trinity doctrine is not BethelBoy's only reason for being here? I thought he just liked hangin' out... talkin' about 'stuff'... :dontknow:

One error of WT's doctrine is in saying "only" - as in "the h.s. is only like electric current", or "Jesus is only the Son of God" - it's like they're denegrading the proper meaning in their effort to stand apart from 'Babylon's' language and imagery. imo, in doing so, they created their own false ritual use of WT language and imagery.

To many Christian sects that's just blasphemous. But they are only looking in from the outside and picking on the worst of the worst - just as JW's have done too - both sides misrepresenting the other. We know the spirit is not 'only' anything...

BethelBoy - I love Jehovah's Witnesses - every single one I've ever known was in the religion because they thought it was the most pleasing to God. I think that's why people are in religion in the first place - thinking that 'in' religion is where to please Him - now pick The Right one! lol. I'll only speak for myself here - I want no more religion in my life because I feel all of them teach error as truth in some capacity, with all good intentions of course.

I feel we have all been mislead by thousands of years of accumulated theologies. Every Christian denomination feels they are the one and only truthful way leading people to worship God 'correctly'. (I went from church to church for years and years before choosing JW's - then I was ruined for religion for good!) God I NEED, Jesus I NEED, and the Bible I LOVE - but religion, no... It goes to people's heads - I know it did mine...:redface: It feels too good being 'right' about everything...

My big turning point was in realizing Jesus Christ Really IS THE Only Way, Truth and Life. The only Way to know God, the only Way to please God is to love, honor, obey and praise His Son. Not any one religion, human being or organisation should receive our glory or worshipful adoration. They can be tools to lead us to the Way, but then they should jump back and not try to stand between us and the one calling us.

It's very hard to overcome the language that religion imposes on it's followers. I've had opportunities with many of my former JW brethren to share Jesus - I think many of us now recognise that glazed stare when we get to "talking about Jesus too much"...:huh:

But... I think the WT has done the holy spirit some justice lately - they used to teach that it wasn't "available" so much for everyone as for the 144,000 "spirit-anointed class". But recently they've recanted a bit - urging people to pray for the spirit. I think that's great actually - it's the spirit that helps us discern right from wrong. And it's been pointed out that the Bible really does say "holy spirit IN you"... It certainly must be the reason 'the annointed' group seems to be growing, not diminishing! Light bulbs must be flashing on all over the place! :idea: Let his light shine, brothers and sisters in Christ!

We need an outpouring of God's spirit - Christ's spirit - daily, as we have all been blinded to the real truth. I pray that everyone will eventually come to Jesus and recognise him as THE Only WAY.:love: If God draws them like He did me, I think most will. :grouphug:

:pray:Let's ALL pray for EVERYone EVERYwhere!

:peace:

Dear BB,

Okay, I've done just what Yannis so kindly resisted in doing ... highjacking a thread. But Debbie and Willa have made good points. I especially like Willa's observation of how we were hoodwinked into the very thing the WT accused the rest of the churches in doing.

You accuse me of the old pointing a finger with three fingers back but you've got me wrong. I've broken from my religion. That's why I'm here. I didn't sneak in and see how I could introduce my "new" religion. I already toked my stuff in the 60's, thank you, and like Willa I was searching for the meaning of life and the nonsense of war and why many religions were preaching free love and that God was dead. JW's were the only people preaching contrary to them with the added message that the end was near. Who didn't believe the end was near? WHo doesn't today?

When I heard the words of J.F.Rutherford speak out against all the other churches: "Religion is a snare and a racket!" did I know then it was coming from the biggest racketeer ever grown on WT soil? Of course not! Who did? Back then JW's were the most hated people of all religions. When I found out that they resisted the wars and put their lives on the line for their faith, who wouldn't see them as early Christians? Even my buddies in the '60's, while laughing at me for joining, admitted they were the closest thing to what Christ taught. And since JW's incited me to study my Bible, that I did, so I owe them that much. So I doubt that God's Spirit was not working through them. It just wasn't working for them.

What Rutherford said is still true today. Religion IS a snare and a racket .. except now I know why he stopped saying it. It was because of accusations JW's were communists infiltrating America. Karl Marx taught the same: "Religion is the opiate of the people!" I don't doubt Marx's words to this day, but that doesn't make me a communist. I didn't buy a socialist party card or Marx's social Darwinism. I bought some of his observations. People see the truth in many things but political activists are the ones who are good at making the truth into a bigger lie. That's why Christians were never meant to get political.

So if there's any finger pointing going on, I accept my three fingers pointing back. I confess my once mistaken belief in what was presented to me as a spiritual, non-religious faith was a ruse. I confess I was fooled. But you come here with no such confession. You came here pointing your finger at our beliefs. Time to look at your own three fingers. You haven't had your wake up call yet. You're still asleep in your doctrine.

So that's all I have to say, BB.

sw

Hey Wick, Thanks for filling me in a bit of background!!! I really appreciate your reply!!!

Here is just a tad from me.

I found PC totally by accident surfin one day doing JW seraches.

I have an Older Sister who has been in the WT since the 70's and that got me into lookin into what the WT taught.

Unlike her I had the freedom to read anything I wanted.

( she can give me a 100 books but not accept a single one from me )

Her and I have had a few conversations, but there is not an open ear to here anything that strays from the WT teaching.

When I did I was shocked. I bought up ( and still have ) things like the original Studies in the Scriptures,Millions will never die, and bound volumes of the Awake and WT from the 60-90's.

But the most eye opening books were the KIT and the NWT.

One of the worst translated passages ( and there are many ) but the one that really got my goat was John 17:3 in the NWT.

3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Compared to my NKJV the difference was huge.

3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

"This is" a definitive statement changed to " This means " and " that they may know you " changed to " taking in knowledge of you ".

Here let me say " I hate Religion " and so does God!!!

After all the Highest Religious Leaders of Jesus day sought to and eventually did have Him killed.

I am a person who has a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. ( I know Him personally not just about Him )

I believe going to " Church " will no more make a person a true Christian than going to a "barn" will make you a true cow.

I have fellowship with a small group of like minded Believers who meet to Bread bread,Pray,Worship, and study God's word.

And if for some reason and some point in my Life the Lord leads me somewhere else to fellowship my " Salvation " remains the same because it is " In Christ " not the group/denomiation etc. but Christ alone.

I can't convert a cup of water into a cup of coffee. So I don't think I have a chance with Humans I'll leave that Job up to the HS.

I have my opinions ( strong at times I admit ) and state them with my Biblical references. I think that's what DB's are all about.

I love the crew who hang here!!! and enjoy that chats a ton!!

There's a ton more I could say but I think it's time to get back to the thread.


" In Christ "

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart: