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I've got an odd question, I was reading last month and I came to an odd discovery...mainly that no where in the Old Testament does it mention the fallen angels. I know they talk about the Sons of God and their offspring, but never about them actually falling. In fact until Revelation (which in my mind speaks of what is to come, not what has all ready happened long ago. If that were the case it'd be a history, not a prophecy), the only mention of the possibility of bad angels is in Daniel where the angels of Israel are standing against the angels of Persia and Greece.

So I went and did some research, and what I found kind of confused me. Where in the Bible do we hear the tale of Satan being hurled to the Earth? Where is this epic battle that MUST have taken place and been a terrible sight to see? And when you look at the Bible the word Satan when broken down means adversary much like an attorney. And in Isaiah the Helel ben Shahar (Morning Star) could have just as easily referred to Babylon's king as Lucifer means shining one.

The first mention I could find of this rebellion as a thing that has all ready taken place is in a 4th century text by Saint Augustine (there's those darn Catholics again) called THE CITY OF GOD. It was a text of fancy meant to be a parable of pride in which the story of the rebellion was laid out in the manner long lost to modern storytellers and talks of how the rebellion mentioned in Revelation came before the creation of Adam, thus placing Satan upon the Earth to tempt Eve in Eden.

So, if Revalation han't happened yet, and this rebellion hasn't taken place, how can the Devil (which can be traced to Ahriman in Zoroaster before any mention in the Bible) all ready be upon the Earth? Why does every mention of Ha-Satan become more like a blocking agent, attorney or tester? Now, remember, I am talking OT here, NT has things to say, though I get the feeling the Apostle Paul didn't like angels in general and had a deep mistrust for them all from the start, and I'll be honest, I don't have a lot of love for the New Testament as it seems to be getting revisions and there's books missing from it thus making the puzzle incomplete in my opinion. My question is this, has the Devil, this doer of great evil in the eyes of God fallen, or is it a prophecy instead that has been twisted out of the timeline about an angel who says to God 'I disagree with you' very much like Peter denying Jesus and sparks an inter-heaven war. The events spoken of just do not make sense to me and seem to have been twisted about, mucked up with other religious idea from Persia, Greece, Sumeria and Assyria. :read:

-Kaye
Hi there:

Quote:
So I went and did some research, and what I found kind of confused me. Where in the Bible do we hear the tale of Satan being hurled to the Earth?

So, if Revalation han't happened yet, and this rebellion hasn't taken place, how can the Devil (which can be traced to Ahriman in Zoroaster before any mention in the Bible) all ready be upon the Earth?


Hmmm.. it seems the devil was never denied access to the earth.

The hurling to the earth in Rev. 12, appears to me, to be during the great trib.. and the hurling of Satan to the earth, appears to be a defaming of Satan.. where Satan has lost his spotlight in the sun.. another words a spiritual thing, rather than a physical thing like the JW's teach.

At examining the appearance of Satan, in chapt 12.. as a dragon. His appearance is identical to the wild beast, in Chap 11. Note in Chap. 11 how Satan gave the wild beast his authority, and throne. So I think the Wild Beast is the personification of Satan, and it is he, who Michael defames and throws out of glory.

:coffee:

he is in the book of job for one.
According to the Watchtower YES. They say..
After God's Messianic kingdom was born in the heavens at the close of the Gentile Times in 1914, Satan the Devil and his army of demon angels were cast down in defeat from heaven to the vicinity of this earth. Watchtower 76 page 752 p 9.

The bibles in Rev 12: 7,9 says "And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

No doubt you would agree there has been a long spiritual fight or war with the Devil from the time of Jesus enthronement in 33ce up to our day. This has been a long war of attrition. The Watchtower teaches that Satan has an Organisation yet they fail to recognise that Rev 12 :8 is referring to Satan and his angles in heavenly places or positions of governmental power in heaven. Jesus has not removed them from their kingly positions yet. How do we know that? The Devils Organisation in heaven is still in operation and they all have their positions of power in a heavenly Government. Take for example the Golden age teaching. Through the Enochan Watchtowers the angels (Watchers or Demons) are said to dwell in Heavenly Cities known as the 4 Watchtowers. Link below.

http://www.witness.talktalk.net/Watchman...an_009.htm

serafina Wrote:


when you look at the Bible the word Satan when broken down means adversary much like an attorney.
...
Why does every mention of Ha-Satan become more like a blocking agent, attorney or tester?

-Kaye


I think you've already referred to the answer yourself. The issue from Genesis is:

    "Can mankind become like Almighty God and manage without His guidance?"
If the adversary were to win the "legal" battle, God would be redundant (! what a horrible thought)

When the legal case has run to it's conclusion, then and only then can the adversary be evicted - just as a sentence is only passed at the end of a court case. I don't think the case is concluded yet; the Heavens would declare it to all creation, it would be a great day of celebration, and mankind could finally begin it's recovery.

Acts5v29

Acts5v29 Wrote:
]If the adversary were to win the "legal" battle, God would be redundant (! what a horrible thought)


That depends, is God on the other stand, or the judge? If it's the judge it would be more a case against a person than God wouldn't it? (Sorry, this was bothering me after I read this a while back and I decided to play the devil's advocate. Sorry...bad pun. :P)

Seriously though, I think I'd have to disagree on some points and agree on others. The Revelations point intrigues me, but the point of not having Satan mentioned I'd have to disagree with.

And if there were more stories and legends about such a creature but under a different name, wouldn't that simply support evidence of his existence? :huh: I would think so, personally I love finding points like that that would support something in the Bible, because though it might have a different name it sounds too much alike in description. Arguing over the wording can just drive one nutty honestly :headbanging:

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