Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

We usually think of salvation as coming through faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ (Romans 3:28; 5:1 etc.). Some feel that this faith needs to be acted on, but not everyone. Justification by faith seems to mean that a Christian has been given a token status of righteousness through trust in God’s provision of a ransom, and perhaps acting on that trust.

How does it work? It seems that, out of trust that there is a hope for the future that a new world will be established based on God’s standards and ruled over by His Son, believers start to live now in a manner they feel will be the norm in the new world. They base their behaviour in this world on the teachings of Jesus in scripture, and even though they become out of step with the thrust of this world, they doggedly continue on this narrow, cramped, and sometimes persecuted path in the hope of salvation and the promised eternal life (Philippians 3:8-14).

The vast majority don’t bother themselves with these complications, and apply themselves to living in this world by its own standards. They will either ‘die in their sins’ or be ‘acquitted from their sins’ (John 8:21; 6:7). How these two scriptures harmonise is possibly a topic of its own if it hasn’t been discussed already.

So there will be a resurrection of the unrighteous (Acts 24:15). To me, that means that there will be a new life for those not given the token status of righteousness during this life. What will their gift of eternal life be based on, if it is based on anything at all? Will it be based on faith, a faith somehow different in that life in the new world, that might be considered as walking by sight and not by faith, in contrast to 2Corinthians 5:7? The holy city of New Jerusalem will be governing at that time, and the purpose of the city will be the healing of the people of the nations.

In our world now, we seem to choose between two realities – our present satanic world and the city to come that even Abraham looked forward to, a city of promise not yet come. That city’s reality is directly proportional to our faith. In the new world, it seems people will also choose between two realities, but both of them will be real in the ordinary sense of the word. You won’t need to believe in New Jerusalem, it will be there, and you will choose whether to align yourself with the standards for eternal life, or not.

It begs the question as to why one might bother with faith at all in this system of things, unless one is a masochist or simply a lover of goodness and truth despite the obvious costs. Even though the apostle Paul recognised two resurrections, he desperately wanted to succeed in getting the first one (Philippians 3:11). I realise that verse doesn’t specify the first resurrection, but Bible commentators seem to accept he means that. Not everyone would agree, though, that he had the two choices available to him, perhaps because more is expected of a person who had a revelation from Jesus Himself! But the average Christian is no apostle Paul, and still fights the good fight to be found righteous through living a faithful life.

I wonder what the criteria for the gift of eternal life might be in the new world, if any. I don’t see how faith can have the same attributes in the two very different worlds. Perhaps the basis for life then will be the willingness to enter the Holy City with a new heart and get down to the work of personal renovation. We agree, I think, that those who succeed to the first resurrection have no fear of any further test on their faith, but those in the second resurrection will face a test after the process of perfection is completed. Is this the basis of their salvation? If so, does this mean that salvation by faith is limited to our world, and that there might be two bases for salvation as a whole?

Brendan.

Hi New Heart,

I had to recap on the basics to try and get some things straight in my mind. I also think the JWs are wrong on this idea of death releasing us from our sins on its own merit. It seems to make the ransom sacrifice unnecessary. I think your conclusion must be right, that dying is the end of living a life of spiritual ignorance and being born again to a real spiritual life.

Could this be true – that those who are baptised into Jesus' death are acquitted from their past sins, and those like the Pharisees who rejected Jesus died in their sins? What then about those who never rejected or accepted Jesus, due to indifference or circumstance? I guess they die in their sins, but that seems to have no bearing on their hope of a resurrection, because the second resurrection is targeted specifically at them.

What I’m not clear about is your interpretation of Jesus’ words at John 5:28,29 and how they fit in with Paul’s words in Acts 24:15. Paul seems to be making an unambiguous statement about a future literal resurrection. Perhaps we should not correlate what Jesus said about the resurrection with Paul’s words? Maybe we should also separate John 5:24-26 from verses 28 and 29 in case the former verses relate to this system and the latter relate to the next? Is this the point you are actually making? Does it all hinge on the ‘dead’ in verse 25 meaning the spiritually dead who are alive in this system of things? Do you view verse 28 in the very same way, where those ‘who are in their graves’ is just another way of saying spiritually dead?

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi Brendan and New Heart,

It is good to see you back, Brendan.

New Heart is absolutely correct...Romans 6:7 was taken out of context by the witnesses. The context clearly shows that Adamic death is not being spoken of but baptism of the Christian...which for all Christians, not just a select anointed group, is into Christ's death.

Paul's says in 2 Corinthians that we believers are given the 'token' of what is to come..the Holy Spirit....And, if we walk faithfully according to the grace bestowed on us that 'token' is our 'free pass' to life eternal. As Jesus also said in the book of John....the believer in him has eternal life.

Regarding the general resurrection of the dead and who or who will not be raised and have a 'perpetual sleep' and also the consequential basis for judgment? I am pleased I love and serve a God of perfect justice whose Son walked this Earth like us (but he was faultless) so he is fully aware of all our human frailties.

blessings
Derek

Hi Brenden,

I am once again enjoying your post. You seem to do some deep contemplations.. Interesting questions you raise.

Just a couple of thoughts on this paragraph. In the scripture that NT quoted in John 5 I can't help but notice that life is connected to hearing Our Lords voice. Whether it was those who heard him then, or came out of the graves.

I cannot see how it can be Biblically shown where there would be two basis of salvation.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. He is the way to our Father and salvation. Past, now and future.

Christian Love
Lynn

Hi Brendan and all.
I believe that the WT is wrong in their understanding of Romans 6:7,
(taken out of context) but they are right in their explanation of John 5:29 & 9, in their saying that those who literally are dead and practiced vile things will be resurrected to judgement NOT on their past sins, but how they accept the new system of things. Their actual judgement being at the end of the reign of Christ.

It seems to me that Jesus is covering all bases in John 5. In vrs24&5, he is talking about spiritual death and rebirth, and in vrs 28 & 9, literal death and resurrection. There is no reason to seperate the vrs in John 5 because the context is the same in all, that is "judgement",
(vrs 27), not resurrection. The judgement is based on honoring and believing in Jesus, or not, whether in this life or life after resurrection. :happyheart:

Hi Brendan,

I will take a stab at this one. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (New International Version) says this: "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

So really I'm not so certain we can determine where we will ultimately end up since even Paul could only hope for an "earlier resurrection."

Also, regarding John 5:28,9, I'm skeptical of the WT teaching since Jesus was using sins in the past tense. So it's my guess that this might be an assumptive, mistranslation of the Greek word for "Judgment."

Some translations say "those who have done evil will rise to be condemned," whereas others say "to a resurrection of damnation." But my view is that this could possibly refer to a judgment that is NOT necessarily adverse, which might harmonize better with 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. Just a thought or two.

:heartbeat:sw

Hi Folks,

In a way, it does seem to come down to context, you bet. I mean in the way that obedience seems to be the bottom line for gaining eternal life (I think), and faith might be the instrument for God’s acceptance of a lower level of obedience in this world. But perhaps in the next, when people are perfected, and are walking by sight, it might involve the opposite proportions of faith and obedience. Now I’m not sure how this would fit in with New Heart’s understanding of the second resurrection – would it make these speculations invalid? How would we understand the dead coming out of their memorial tombs, having died in their sins due to indifference or ignorance, and the former definitely coming under condemnation for that indifference? Can we rely on the Watchtower explanation that they are getting a second chance despite having their actions condemned in the light of truth? Or are you right, New Heart that a more radical interpretation is needed to make sense of it all? I would never have though that John 5:24-29 would need to be looked at more deeply.

I was surprised by SW’s interpretation of 1Corinthians 3:12-15. Is it me, or was there a Watchtower interpretation of these verses that said they were talking about the disciples we made, and if our work (our converts) was burned up (they did not grow to completeness), we would still be saved. Mind you, it’s a mystery to me how one Christian could be held accountable for the life of another Christian, unless we taught them really badly and gave them a terrible example to follow! So if you are right, SW, the work here is a Christian’s own spiritual growth, I suppose, and a day (the day of Christ, GNB) will come when it is put to the test.

Brendan.

Hi Brendan

Is this the article you were referring to?

*** w98 11/1 pp. 8-13 Will Your Work Withstand the Fire? ***

Will Your Work Withstand the Fire?

“Let each one keep watching how he is building on [the foundation].”—1 CORINTHIANS 3:10.

A CHRISTIAN married couple gazes at their newborn child. A Kingdom publisher sees an eager, interested expression on the face of a Bible student. A Christian elder teaching from the platform notices in the audience a newly interested individual avidly looking up scriptures in his Bible. These faithful servants of Jehovah have hearts full of hope. They cannot help but wonder, ‘Will this person come to love and serve Jehovah—and remain faithful?’ Of course, such an outcome is not automatic. It takes work.

2 A masterful teacher himself, the apostle Paul underscored the importance of the work of teaching and making disciples when he wrote: “You ought to be teachers in view of the time.” (Hebrews 5:12) The Christians whom he addressed had made little progress, considering how long they had been believers. Far from being ready to teach others, they needed to be reminded of basic aspects of the truth. Today, all of us do well from time to time to take stock of our abilities as teachers and see how we can make improvements. Lives are at stake. What can we do?

3 In an extended illustration, Paul likened the making of disciples to the process of constructing a building. He began by saying: “We are God’s fellow workers. You people are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building.” (1 Corinthians 3:9) So we share in a building work involving people; we help to build them into disciples of Christ. We do so as fellow workers of the One who “constructed all things.” (Hebrews 3:4) What a privilege! Let us see how Paul’s inspired counsel to the Corinthians can help us to become more skilled at our work. We will focus particularly on our “art of teaching.”—2 Timothy 4:2.

Laying the Right Foundation

4 If a building is to be stable and durable, it needs a good foundation. Thus, Paul wrote: “According to the undeserved kindness of God that was given to me, as a wise director of works I laid a foundation.” (1 Corinthians 3:10) Using a similar illustration, Jesus Christ told of a house that survived a storm because its builder had chosen a solid foundation. (Luke 6:47-49) Jesus knew all about the importance of foundations. He was present when Jehovah founded the very earth. (Proverbs 8:29-31) Jesus’ audience too valued good foundations. Only well-founded houses could outlast the flash floods and earthquakes that sometimes occurred in Palestine. What, though, was the foundation Paul had in mind?

5 Paul wrote: “No man can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:11) This was not the first time Jesus had been likened to a foundation. In fact, Isaiah 28:16 foretold: “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: ‘Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a stone, a tried stone, the precious corner of a sure foundation.’” Jehovah had long purposed that his Son become the foundation of the Christian congregation.—Psalm 118:22; Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-6.

6 What is the foundation for individual Christians? As Paul said, there is no foundation for a true Christian but the one laid down in God’s Word—Jesus Christ. Paul certainly laid such a foundation. In Corinth, where philosophy was so highly regarded, he did not seek to impress people with worldly wisdom. Rather, Paul preached “Christ impaled,” which the nations dismissed as so much “foolishness.” (1 Corinthians 1:23) Paul taught that Jesus is the central figure in Jehovah’s purposes.—2 Corinthians 1:20; Colossians 2:2, 3.

7 Paul noted that he did such teaching “as a wise director of works.” This statement was not egotistic. It was simply an acknowledgment of a wonderful gift Jehovah had given him—that of organizing or directing work. (1 Corinthians 12:28) Granted, we today do not have the miraculous gifts that were bestowed upon first-century Christians. And we might not think of ourselves as gifted teachers. But in an important sense, we are. Consider: Jehovah gives us his holy spirit to help us. (Compare Luke 12:11, 12.) And we have a love of Jehovah and a knowledge of the basic teachings of his Word. These are truly wonderful gifts to use in teaching others. Let us resolve to use them to lay the proper foundation.

8 When we lay Christ as a foundation, we do not present him as a helpless babe in a manger, nor as Jehovah’s equal in a Trinity. No, such unscriptural notions form a foundation for counterfeit Christians. Rather, we teach that he was the greatest man who ever lived, that he laid down his perfect life in our behalf, and that he is today Jehovah’s appointed King reigning in heaven. (Romans 5:8; Revelation 11:15) We also seek to motivate our students to walk in Jesus’ footsteps and imitate his qualities. (1 Peter 2:21) We want them to be deeply moved by Jesus’ zeal for the ministry, his compassion for the lowly and downtrodden, his mercy toward sinners crushed by their own guilt, his unswerving courage in the face of trials. Truly, Jesus is a magnificent foundation. But what comes next?

Building With the Right Materials

9 Paul wrote: “Now if anyone builds on the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay, stubble, each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is.” (1 Corinthians 3:12, 13) What did Paul mean? Consider the background. Paul was primarily a foundation-layer. On his missionary tours, he traveled from city to city, preaching to many who had never heard of Christ. (Romans 15:20) As people accepted the truth that he taught, congregations were formed. Paul cared deeply about these faithful ones. (2 Corinthians 11:28, 29) However, his work required him to move on. So after spending 18 months laying a foundation in Corinth, he left to preach in other cities. Still, he was keenly interested in how others followed up on the work that he had done there.—Acts 18:8-11; 1 Corinthians 3:6.

10 It seems that some who were building on the foundation that Paul had laid in Corinth were doing a poor job. To expose the problem, Paul contrasts two types of building materials: gold, silver, and precious stones on the one hand; wood, hay, and stubble on the other. A building can be erected from fine, durable, fire-resistant materials; or one can be hastily put up using disposable, temporary, and flammable materials. Such a great city as Corinth no doubt abounded in buildings of both types. There were imposing temples made from massive, expensive blocks of stone, perhaps faced or decorated in part with gold and silver. These durable edifices probably loomed majestically over nearby huts, hovels, and market stalls made of rough wooden frames and thatched with straw.

11 What would happen to these buildings in a fire? The answer was as obvious in Paul’s day as it is in ours. In fact, the city of Corinth had been conquered and set ablaze by the Roman General Mummius back in 146 B.C.E. Many structures of wood, hay, or stubble had surely been utterly destroyed. What of the sturdy buildings of stone, decorated with silver and gold? These, no doubt, survived. Paul’s students in Corinth may well have passed by such buildings daily—proud stone survivors of disasters that had long since leveled their less durable neighbors. How vividly, then, Paul made his point! When teaching, we need to regard ourselves as builders. We want to work with the best, most durable materials possible. That way our work is more likely to last. What are those durable materials, and why is it vital to use them?

Will Your Work Withstand the Fire?

12 Clearly, Paul felt that some of the Christians in Corinth were building poorly. What was wrong? As the context shows, the congregation was plagued with divisiveness, the admiring of human personalities despite the risk to the unity of the congregation. Some were saying, “I belong to Paul,” whereas others were insisting, “I [belong] to Apollos.” Some evidently thought too highly of their own wisdom. The result, not surprisingly, was an atmosphere of fleshly thinking, spiritual immaturity, and rampant “jealousy and strife.” (1 Corinthians 1:12; 3:1-4, 18) These attitudes were surely reflected in the teaching that was done in the congregation and in the ministry. The result was that their disciple-making work was slipshod, like building work done with inferior materials. It would not survive the “fire.” What fire was Paul talking about?

13 There is a fire that we all face in life—tests of our faith. (John 15:20; James 1:2, 3) The Christians in Corinth needed to know, just as we today need to know, that everyone to whom we teach the truth will be tested. If we teach poorly, there may be sad consequences. Paul warned: “If anyone’s work that he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward; if anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved; yet, if so, it will be as through fire.”—1 Corinthians 3:14, 15.

14 Sobering words indeed! It can be very painful to work hard to help someone become a disciple, only to see the individual succumb to temptation or persecution and eventually leave the way of the truth. Paul acknowledges as much when he says that we suffer loss in such cases. The experience may be so painful that our salvation is described as being “as through fire”—like a man who lost everything in a fire and was himself just barely rescued. For our part, how can we minimize the risk of loss? Build with durable materials! If we teach our students so as to reach their hearts, moving them to value such precious Christian qualities as wisdom, discernment, fear of Jehovah, and genuine faith, then we are building with durable, fire-resistant materials. (Psalm 19:9, 10; Proverbs 3:13-15; 1 Peter 1:6, 7) Those who acquire these qualities will continue to do God’s will; theirs is the sure hope of remaining alive forever. (1 John 2:17) How, though, can we put Paul’s illustration to practical use? Consider some examples.

15 When teaching Bible students, we should never promote humans over Jehovah God. Our goal is not to teach them to view us as a primary source of wisdom. We want them to look to Jehovah, his Word, and his organization for guidance. To that end, we do not simply offer our own views in response to their questions. Rather, we teach them to find answers, using the Bible and the publications that “the faithful and discreet slave” has provided. (Matthew 24:45-47) For similar reasons, we are careful not to be possessive of our Bible students. Instead of resenting it when others express an interest in them, we should encourage our students to “widen out” in their affections, getting to know and appreciate as many in the congregation as possible.—2 Corinthians 6:12, 13.

16 Christian elders too play a vital role in building disciples. When they teach before the congregation, they seek to build with fire-resistant materials. Their teaching ability, experience, and personality may vary widely, but they do not capitalize on these differences to draw followers after themselves. (Compare Acts 20:29, 30.) We do not know exactly why some in Corinth were saying, “I belong to Paul” or, “I to Apollos.” But we can be quite sure that neither of these faithful elders promoted such divisive thinking. Paul was not flattered by such sentiments; he refuted them vigorously. (1 Corinthians 3:5-7) Likewise today, elders keep in mind that they shepherd “the flock of God.” (1 Peter 5:2) It does not belong to any man. So elders stand firm against any tendency for one man to dominate either the flock or the body of elders. As long as elders are motivated by a humble desire to serve the congregation, reach hearts, and help the sheep to serve Jehovah whole-souled, they build with fire-resistant materials.

17 Christian parents too are deeply concerned with this matter. How dearly they yearn to see their children live forever! That is why they work so hard to “inculcate” the principles of God’s Word into their children’s hearts. (Deuteronomy 6:6, 7) They want their children to know the truth, not just as a set of rules or a litany of facts, but as a full, rewarding, and happy way of life. (1 Timothy 1:11) In order to build their children into faithful disciples of Christ, loving parents endeavor to use fire-resistant materials. They patiently work with their children, helping them weed out qualities that Jehovah hates and cultivate the qualities that he loves.—Galatians 5:22, 23.

Who Is Responsible?

18 This discussion raises an important question. If someone whom we endeavor to help falls away from the truth, does that mean that we failed as teachers—that we must have built with inferior materials? Not necessarily. Paul’s words certainly remind us that it is a great responsibility to share in building disciples. We want to do everything in our power to build well. But God’s Word is not telling us to shoulder the whole responsibility and become burdened with guilt when those whom we seek to help turn away from the truth. There are other factors that come into play besides our own role as builders. For example, notice what Paul says regarding even the teacher who has done a poor job in this building work: “He will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved.” (1 Corinthians 3:15) If this individual may eventually gain salvation—whereas the Christian personality he endeavored to build in his student is pictured as being “burned up” in a fiery test—what must we conclude? Surely, that Jehovah holds the student primarily responsible for his own decisions as to whether he will follow a faithful course or not.

19 Personal, or individual, responsibility is a matter of great importance. It touches each one of us. Specifically, what does the Bible teach on the matter? Our next article will consider this.

[Footnotes]

The ‘foundation of the earth’ may refer to the physical forces that hold it—and all heavenly bodies—firmly in place. Additionally, the earth itself is constructed in such a way that it will never “totter,” or suffer destruction.—Psalm 104:5.

The “precious stones” Paul referred to were not necessarily gems, such as diamonds and rubies. They could have been such costly building stones as marble, alabaster, or granite.

Paul was putting into doubt the salvation of, not the builder, but the builder’s “work.” The New English Bible renders this verse: “If a man’s building stands, he will be rewarded; if it burns, he will have to bear the loss; and yet he will escape with his life, as one might from a fire.”

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Hi New Heart,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts as much and as honestly as you have! I am as intrigued by what I think is your understanding of the second resurrection as I was years ago when someone first mentioned to me the possibility that heaven, for people, might be on earth in the shape of Heavenly Jerusalem really coming down here!

This topic has many facets to it. I enjoyed taking a closer look at John 5:24-29:

I am telling you the truth: those who hear my words and believe in him who sent me have eternal life. They will not be judged, but have already passed from death to life. I am telling you the truth: the time is coming---the time has already come---when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life.

(Just as the Father is himself the source of life, in the same way he has made his Son to be the source of life. And he has given the Son the right to judge, because he is the Son of Man.)

Do not be surprised at this; the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves: those who have done good will rise and live, and those who have done evil will rise and be condemned.

I think it has come out in the conversation that there are two issues here; one that the first verses relate to being born again in this world, and the next verses to a possible regeneration in the next and two, that there might be no reason to see two sides to this particular ‘coin’ in the first place.

E-magine wrote: It seems to me that Jesus is covering all bases in John 5. In vrs24&5, he is talking about spiritual death and rebirth, and in vrs 28 & 9, literal death and resurrection. There is no reason to seperate the vrs in John 5 because the context is the same in all, that is "judgement", (vrs 27), not resurrection. The judgement is based on honoring and believing in Jesus, or not, whether in this life or life after resurrection.

I put verses 26 and 27 in brackets to make them into a dividing line between the two possible issues being spoken of here. Everybody seems fine with verses 24 and 25. I’m surprised at this – I never caught the exact meaning of them until right now – I think I just glossed over them. But verse 27 is difficult to reconcile with the idea of the second resurrection being symbolic, if you view grave as being intended to be understood in a literal way. The CEV, GW and GNB just say ‘all of the dead’ instead of ‘all in their graves’. The Message Bible covers both terms by saying ‘everyone dead and buried’.

For me, to adopt the understanding that people are judged on their behaviour in this life would be a return to something quite like the one I was raised with as a Catholic. We were given a mental picture of a statue like the scales of justice, where good deeds went on one side and bad ones on the other, and if the scales tipped, however slightly one way or the other, you were judged for eternity on that leaning of the scales. Then there is always the question that the second resurrection answered in a nice way for us as JWs and even after – that the vast masses of mankind who never even heard of Jesus would get a chance despite living lives meriting condemnation. Some might say that there was never a need to hear about Jesus, and that people could be judged on their own consciences, according to one interpretation of Romans 1:20.

Nonetheless, it scares me that we might be judged for all eternity on what I do in this relatively tiny amount of life.

I haven't addressed all your points yet but I will ASAP.

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi again New Heart,

I’m continuing on with your post, and I’m at the part where you say Paul got the idea about the resurrection from Jesus’ words. I’m guessing that you mean he got it from the words written and the things said about Jesus’ teachings, rather than from inspiration, or the things said to him at his conversion. I’m not really happy to concede that every word Paul wrote may not be the God’s-honest fact of the matter, but it seems that not even he was convinced of it either, so I must accept that. Scriptural interpretation becomes even more difficult in this situation.

So I think we’re left with two problems; one, was the interpretation passed on to Paul faulty, or two, are we reading it wrong? And then we need to bring Daniel 12:1,2 into it too.

"'That's when Michael, the great angel-prince, champion of your people, will step in. It will be a time of trouble, the worst trouble the world has ever seen. But your people will be saved from the trouble, every last one found written in the Book. Many who have been long dead and buried will wake up, some to eternal life, others to eternal shame (MSG).

If this refers to the second resurrection specifically, what might the everlasting shame or contempt consist of, because in a literal way, I picture people going around forever in a disgraced state, like having an everlasting black cloud over their heads, which seems a bit mad, or if it is to be taken in a symbolic way, perhaps the memory of them as contemptible people will be all that’s left of them. But I remember that we used to hate the idea of God going to the bother of raising people from the dead, just to condemn them and consign them to everlasting destruction.

What about e-magine’s post that John 5:24-29 is all about judgement, regardless of timing, if I understand correctly? Yet we accept that two separate events are being discussed in the passage, if we understand verses 28 and 29 as referring to the second resurrection. If these verses do not have a literal meaning, how can they be re-worded to give a different understanding, where the whole passage is talking about just one change in peoples’ hearts and just one judgement based on that change?

Here is the version in the Message Bible:

"It's urgent that you listen carefully to this: Anyone here who believes what I am saying right now and aligns himself with the Father, who has in fact put me in charge, has at this very moment the real, lasting life and is no longer condemned to be an outsider. This person has taken a giant step from the world of the dead to the world of the living.
"It's urgent that you get this right: The time has arrived--I mean right now!--when dead men and women will hear the voice of the Son of God and, hearing, will come alive.

"Don't act so surprised at all this. The time is coming when everyone dead and buried will hear his voice.
Those who have lived the right way will walk out into a resurrection Life; those who have lived the wrong way, into a resurrection Judgment.

Verse 28 and 29, looked at on their own here, would seem to reflect your view, I think. But still I feel that the statement "Don't act so surprised at all this" wants us to see that the whole teaching is connected, and that perhaps verses 28 and 29 are a larger version of the event taking place in verses 24 and 25. But I’ll agree that the Message Bible does not make it look that way.

For me, another of the interesting things to surface in the conversation is the belief that judgement might be basis of salvation, not faith, with an understanding that the judgement will be fair, no matter how the details work out. But I sure would like to be able to get down into the fine details and understand them if it is at all possible.

Regards,
Brendan.

:read:

Hello Brendan,

Thanks for your reply. I am interested to discuss this subject as I am in the process of reforming the WT's ideas.. and am not totally set on anything at this point.. I will print your comments out again.. and mine will be in bold print.. Okay? Here is another scripture that Smoldering Wick brought out.. when she/he mentioned 'earlier ressurection'.. It's in Phil. 3:7 onward: I have noticed that when comparing bibles, only the NWT uses the word 'earlier'.. This is from Youngs' Literal :

the righteousness that is of God by the faith, 10 to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, 11 if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead. 12 Not that I did already obtain, or have been already perfected; but I pursue, if also I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by the Christ Jesus; 13 brethren, I do not reckon myself to have laid hold; and one thing -- the things behind indeed forgetting, and to the things before stretching forth -- 14 to the mark I pursue for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Brendan and SW.. It seems again that Paul is talking about becoming perfect or entering in a state of being one with God or a high calling.. now in this body. What do you think.. ? Interesting how the WT.. puts the word 'earlier' in..


This topic has many facets to it. I enjoyed taking a closer look at John 5:24-29:

I am telling you the truth: those who hear my words and believe in him who sent me have eternal life. They will not be judged, but have already passed from death to life. I am telling you the truth: the time is coming---the time has already come---when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life.

(Just as the Father is himself the source of life, in the same way he has made his Son to be the source of life. And he has given the Son the right to judge, because he is the Son of Man.)

Do not be surprised at this; the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves: those who have done good will rise and live, and those who have done evil will rise and be condemned.

Bren..does this have to be when Jesus is 'present' at the end of this system or back then, in the 1st century? Maybe so.

I think it has come out in the conversation that there are two issues here; one that the first verses relate to being born again in this world, and the next verses to a possible regeneration in the next and two, that there might be no reason to see two sides to this particular ‘coin’ in the first place.

E-magine wrote: It seems to me that Jesus is covering all bases in John 5. In vrs24&5, he is talking about spiritual death and rebirth, and in vrs 28 & 9, literal death and resurrection. There is no reason to seperate the vrs in John 5 because the context is the same in all, that is "judgement", (vrs 27), not resurrection. The judgement is based on honoring and believing in Jesus, or not, whether in this life or life after resurrection.

I put verses 26 and 27 in brackets to make them into a dividing line between the two possible issues being spoken of here. Everybody seems fine with verses 24 and 25. I’m surprised at this – I never caught the exact meaning of them until right now – I think I just glossed over them. But verse 27 is difficult to reconcile with the idea of the second resurrection being symbolic, if you view grave as being intended to be understood in a literal way. The CEV, GW and GNB just say ‘all of the dead’ instead of ‘all in their graves’. The Message Bible covers both terms by saying ‘everyone dead and buried’.

I've got to go, but I would like to know what the Strong's meaning is of graves.. I'm thinking it means 'pit'.. or maybe 'sheol'.. I will look it up when I get back.

For me, to adopt the understanding that people are judged on their behaviour in this life would be a return to something quite like the one I was raised with as a Catholic. We were given a mental picture of a statue like the scales of justice, where good deeds went on one side and bad ones on the other, and if the scales tipped, however slightly one way or the other, you were judged for eternity on that leaning of the scales. Then there is always the question that the second resurrection answered in a nice way for us as JWs and even after – that the vast masses of mankind who never even heard of Jesus would get a chance despite living lives meriting condemnation. Some might say that there was never a need to hear about Jesus, and that people could be judged on their own consciences, according to one interpretation of Romans 1:20.

Nonetheless, it scares me that we might be judged for all eternity on what I do in this relatively tiny amount of life.

I haven't addressed all your points yet but I will ASAP.

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi Bangalore,

Thanks for that article. It was, dare I say it, food at the proper time.

Brendan.

hi there again,

At John 5:27, there is mentioned memorial tombs or graves.. so here's the Strongs' ..

_____Strongs_____

G3419 mnemeion mnay-mi'-on

from G3420;

a remembrance, i.e. cenotaph (place of interment):--grave, sepulchre, tomb.