Hi New Truth,:hibye: :love:
The more we all talk the more I see why we are all so confused talking to each other. We aren't looking at much of anything with the same undestanding of what the other is saying At All....
The watchtowwer teaches that we are all being tested Right now and Judged and that is why so many --according to them--will fail and fall at Armageddon. They do not recognize nor understand the concept of ''the level playing field.'' If they did they wouldn't think every man woman and child was up for everlasting destsruction if Jesus came today. I had no idea of the origin of the name Level Playing Field but as Isomam has taken the blame or fame for it :D I can go with that. I believe I read it in one of his poem/essays. Some questions Apryl....
Do you not feel a great resurrrction is going to take place at some time? and
Do you not feel there will be a Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ?...I ask because it sounds a bit like you doubt these are events for the future..
Also--do you believe and have faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ? If so--who did he ransom?
I will stop there for now.... :heartbeat: have a great day friends xxxxx
Hi Apryl,
I promise you I understand that you must stick to your convictions on scripture, and I hope you do. I want to do nothing more than help to give all these ideas a trial run by running with one line of thought and then trying another.
That’s an excellent scripture to refute my point about Ananias and Sapphira. Oh well, back to the drawing board! Sin brings about death, but it does not pay the cost of sin – would it that be a fair statement? If so, then we are back on familiar territory, which probably should be in the forefront at all times anyway, that the cost of sin is paid for by Christ.
The commentators on e-Sword seem to see no definite link between the removal of the Corinthian man and disfellowshipping, either. I was intrigued with it but didn’t follow it through because there was enough going on here at the time to discuss.
I don’t know what to say about Jesus being reborn again as a baby. I am familiar with the stories about the antichrist coming into the world this way, in movies like The Omen. But you are definitely the first person I have heard propose a similar entry into the world for Jesus. However, you have surprised me before and then argued your case very well.
Regards,
Brendan.
hey Brendan,
"you have surprised me before and then argued your case very well." said to NT
Wait till I tell you what I really think :D
Just playing..:help: my brain is alittle off..
It makes me laugh thou cause we can all have such different ideas and I wonder what God and Jesus think of all our speculations?
I imagine that since we have the ability to be creative also they just sit back and have a roll on the floor with some of the things we can come up with. hey we surely know how to keep ourselves amused!
Thanks ISO for your clarifing statement.
Maybe on another thread or time we can discuss if we were meant to have a level playing feild ever until our character is complete? I have cause to believe otherwise.
Hi TD,
Have you got a few surprises up your sleeve? Come on, out with them!
I’ll bet you are right that ‘the happy God’ has a great sense of humour. I trust that He seasons it with compassion.
I get a laugh at how The Simpsons sometimes portrays God, giving Homer very down to earth answers to his questions.
Brendan.
Hi New Heart,
I had to recap on the basics to try and get some things straight in my mind. I also think the JWs are wrong on this idea of death releasing us from our sins on its own merit. It seems to make the ransom sacrifice unnecessary. I think your conclusion must be right, that dying is the end of living a life of spiritual ignorance and being born again to a real spiritual life.
Could this be true – that those who are baptised into Jesus' death are acquitted from their past sins, and those like the Pharisees who rejected Jesus died in their sins? What then about those who never rejected or accepted Jesus, due to indifference or circumstance? I guess they die in their sins, but that seems to have no bearing on their hope of a resurrection, because the second resurrection is targeted specifically at them.
What I’m not clear about is your interpretation of Jesus’ words at John 5:28,29 and how they fit in with Paul’s words in Acts 24:15. Paul seems to be making an unambiguous statement about a future literal resurrection. Perhaps we should not correlate what Jesus said about the resurrection with Paul’s words? Maybe we should also separate John 5:24-26 from verses 28 and 29 in case the former verses relate to this system and the latter relate to the next? Is this the point you are actually making? Does it all hinge on the ‘dead’ in verse 25 meaning the spiritually dead who are alive in this system of things? Do you view verse 28 in the very same way, where those ‘who are in their graves’ is just another way of saying spiritually dead?
Regards,
Brendan.
Dear Brendon,
I just wanted to add my two cents about John 5:25.
I believe Jesus was saying, "the hour is coming" is the same as verse 28. This is the future portion of judgement based on the upcoming judgement time.
"And it is now when the dead will hear the voice" represents that the beginning of the basis of faith in the Jesus was happening "it is now" and they will be dead when the "hour is coming" and then they will "hear the voice of the son of man" and live.
Was that too confusing? Sometimes, I find it difficult to explain my thoughts. I believe these verses do harmonize.
With Christian Love, Debbie
Brother I am confused myself!! ;) most of the time. But it is all good I was only ever asked to seek the kingdom first..
HE never mentioned a score card and how many right answers I get!!
And anyways Like any Good father would do teach using alittle work and alittle play make for the best teaching method. HE himself called it a treasure hunt. Some people just don't seem to want to find this kind of treasure. they only seem to want what he has already done not what he is about to do.
Peace
Hi Debbie,
A couple of decades ago, I suspected that my problem was that I didn’t know what the questions were, never mind the answers. Twenty years later, I’m still grappling with the questions, and I can only thank God that this is a progress of a kind. I never would have thought that in my case “Ask and you will receive†might mean I would get the questions rather than the answers. But all in God’s good time, I guess! So you have my sympathy in trying to harmonise scriptures – I even have my own sympathy, because it can be very tough.
I need the verses in front of me, so here they are:
"I am telling you the truth: those who hear my words and believe in him who sent me have eternal life. They will not be judged, but have already passed from death to life.
I am telling you the truth: the time is coming---the time has already come---when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life.
Just as the Father is himself the source of life, in the same way he has made his Son to be the source of life.
And he has given the Son the right to judge, because he is the Son of Man.
Do not be surprised at this; the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice
and come out of their graves: those who have done good will rise and live, and those who have done evil will rise and be condemned. John 5:24-29
Here are verses 25 and 28 only:
I am telling you the truth: the time is coming---the time has already come---when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life.
Do not be surprised at this; the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice
When you say “I believe Jesus was saying, "the hour is coming" is the same as verse 28. This is the future portion of judgement based on the upcoming judgement timeâ€, do you mean that Jesus is saying that the "the hour is coming" is the future judgement period only, the time of resurrection, and has no application at all in His own time? Or when you mention ‘the future portion of judgement’, do you mean there was a portion of judgement in that time too?
Regards,
Brendan.
Dear New Truth,
I am rereading the thread from the beginning. I've had little time for this thread. It's so deep and there are so many well written posts! I have been looking forward to this time to read and think.
You posted this, I believe, on page two:
"Jesus appears for his 2nd presence, over a period of time.. During this time, his presence is in a 'cloud' or not recognized at first by anyone and then only by his 'bride' class. During this time, he will wake people from a symbolic sleep. Some will awaken to take the side of the wild beast and his corrupt system of Satan, and other will awake to take the side of Jesus and his new kingdom. Then he will be revealed to the entire human race and at that point. The ones who rejected his efforts, to reign in the kingdom will be 'beating their chests in lamenation' with regret and then some will be humbled and slowly during the millenium, come to Christ."
I found your explanations very interesting. One, because I feel similiar in many ways. Two, is this perpective from a JW mind or is there something added from some place else? I'm asking because the quote intriques me.
Thank you.
With Christian love, Debbie
:dancing:
Hello there friends..
Brendan: I have an idea about the resurrection. I think we already covered it. Reviewing..:D I'm believing then our spirit departs at death, from us. It appears to have something of us, perhaps dna?, anyway some type of blueprint of us.. So when God recieves our spirit, he can have 'something' to resurrect or 'stand again'. As I Cor. 15:38 states, (after asking the question: How are the dead raised?) "But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives it's own body." The spirit doesn't appear to be like the JW's teach..like electricity only. At the resurrection, God can then, give one a body. Do you think, it will be the same body? I think you said, yes. If it is dna that God saves, then it would be the same body, unless, God gives one a spirit body, like an angel.. which seems to be the case, as in the scripture you quoted before.. 'we will be like angels, in the resurrection.' Also, if one is in Gehenna, this would be the 2nd death, right? And it wouldn't be decided upon until the 'great white throne', right? Is it possible, that the lake of fire, is not permanent death? I'm still wondering about that..
You said:
I want to do nothing more than help to give all these ideas a trial run by running with one line of thought and then trying another.
Me too, a trial run..just letting our thoughts bounce off of one another is fantastic, isn't it? And staying open to new ideas and letting the holy spirit teach us.. is the key, right?
You said:
don’t know what to say about Jesus being reborn again as a baby. But you are definitely the first person I have heard propose a similar entry into the world for Jesus.
I would like to explain this more but I don't want to veer off of your subject too much.. that wouldn't be nice. ;)
Debbie and Brend:
Talking about John 5:24 - 29...about the dead hearing the voice of Christ and waking up.. I believe this has a 2 part fulfillment, like I think you are both saying. The first fullfillment was on the 1st coming of Christ, and the 2nd fullfillment is on the 2nd coming of Christ. On the 2nd coming of Christ, he obviously speaks, because the sword is coming out of his mouth: Please note:
Is. 11:4b. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. :dueling:
Hi Wolfie:
You were saying:
Do you not feel a great resurrrction is going to take place at some time?
Well, there is definately the Great White Throne judgement which seems to appear @ the end of the thousand years but maybe not, maybe at the beginning (any ideas here?). It appears that the ones in the Sheol, or Hades were brought forth to be judged, according to what they had done. Now, perhaps if someone wasn't worth having their life saved, they would not even be in the 'memorial tombs' of God.. at all. Like say, Judas or the like. It doesn't seem like there are any inbetween people at this judgement.. which is interesting. If the Lake of Fire is the permanent death like we've been taught, then anyone not found in the book of life goes into there. Hmm.. still a bit confused on this.. still waiting for the spirit to help out. Any ideas friends?
Do you not feel there will be a Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ?...I ask because it sounds a bit like you doubt these are events for the future..
absolutely
Also--do you believe and have faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ? If so--who did he ransom?
Absolutely.. He ransomed himself right? with his blood, to pay for our sins so we may have life.
Hey there Debbie:
You were saying:
You posted this, I believe, on page two:
"Jesus appears for his 2nd presence, over a period of time..etc.
I found your explanations very interesting. One, because I feel similiar in many ways. Two, is this perpective from a JW mind or is there something added from some place else? I'm asking because the quote intriques me.
Thanks for relating to what I said, Debbie. I feel quite alone sometimes in my beliefs.. I don't have anyone to really talk much to about these things. I would love to discuss it with you anytime. Ofcourse, the JW's gave me my start in understanding Revelation.. and the scriptures about the end..but I have gone way past that now. Yes, I got this scenerio from my observations in the world.. not from another writer, or anything. I think there is a 2- 3 1/2 presence of Christ. The 1st half, I think, is the Gr. Trib.. and the opening of the 7 seals by the Lamb.. and then the last 3 1/2 years, is when the Christ will be able to be recognized, by the bride class 1st and then at the end, by all the nations. Like, I said to Brendan, I believe he is present as a human, with a birth and all.. and during this time, he can be observed in his battles, by the whole world.. and he would be very divisive..in his judgements and infact, by peoples response, ones would either align themselves with him or against him. Like the first time.. Any thoughts?
I have only recently come to the realisation that many out there would reject anything to do with goodness and truth even at the cost of their eternal lives.
Regards,
Brendon
Hi brendon. After reading this statement, I thought you might find a conversation I had many years ago with a woman ( at that time a baptized JW sister) about Gods Name Jehovah. I was telling her how much I hated to lenghts that ppl go to to deny that name, cover it up, and just plain refuse to acknowledge Jehovah as God. She then told me that the only reason she came to be a baptized JW was because her hasband had converted to the faith, and told me in no uncertain terms that during the time that she herself was studying with the Witness's, that every time she heard the name Jehovah she would cringe inside, grit her teeth, clinch her fist, and just bare it because she knew that Jehovah was Gods name, she then told me " I absolutly hated to hear it said, hated the sound of it." ( Gods name ) I ask her how she felt about it now that she was baptized? " well, I'm geting used to it, but still have a problem with it even though she knew exactly who Jehovah is. She has been disfelowshipped many years now, having removed herself because of this. It made think of a scripture in revelation 20 verse 3, And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while. I think I understand why Jehovah lets Satan loose now, because their will be ppl like this woman in the resurection. SO, I am in complete agreement with you on this. [/color][/size][/font] I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.Jerimah 17;10.
Hi. I wonder if the women had a demon that would inflict her when she heard the name Jehovah.
It is possible.
With Christian Love, Debbiw
:dancing:
Hello there friends..
Brendan: I have an idea about the resurrection. I think we already covered it. Reviewing..:D I'm believing then our spirit departs at death, from us. It appears to have something of us, perhaps dna?, anyway some type of blueprint of us.. So when God recieves our spirit, he can have 'something' to resurrect or 'stand again'. As I Cor. 15:38 states, (after asking the question: How are the dead raised?) "But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives it's own body." The spirit doesn't appear to be like the JW's teach..like electricity only. At the resurrection, God can then, give one a body. Do you think, it will be the same body? I think you said, yes. If it is dna that God saves, then it would be the same body, unless, God gives one a spirit body, like an angel.. which seems to be the case, as in the scripture you quoted before.. 'we will be like angels, in the resurrection.' Also, if one is in Gehenna, this would be the 2nd death, right? And it wouldn't be decided upon until the 'great white throne', right? Is it possible, that the lake of fire, is not permanent death? I'm still wondering about that..
You said:
I want to do nothing more than help to give all these ideas a trial run by running with one line of thought and then trying another.
Me too, a trial run..just letting our thoughts bounce off of one another is fantastic, isn't it? And staying open to new ideas and letting the holy spirit teach us.. is the key, right?
You said:
don’t know what to say about Jesus being reborn again as a baby. But you are definitely the first person I have heard propose a similar entry into the world for Jesus.
I would like to explain this more but I don't want to veer off of your subject too much.. that wouldn't be nice. ;)
Debbie and Brend:
Talking about John 5:24 - 29...about the dead hearing the voice of Christ and waking up.. I believe this has a 2 part fulfillment, like I think you are both saying. The first fullfillment was on the 1st coming of Christ, and the 2nd fullfillment is on the 2nd coming of Christ. On the 2nd coming of Christ, he obviously speaks, because the sword is coming out of his mouth: Please note:
Is. 11:4b. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. :dueling:
Hi Wolfie:
You were saying:
Do you not feel a great resurrrction is going to take place at some time?
Well, there is definately the Great White Throne judgement which seems to appear @ the end of the thousand years but maybe not, maybe at the beginning (any ideas here?). It appears that the ones in the Sheol, or Hades were brought forth to be judged, according to what they had done. Now, perhaps if someone wasn't worth having their life saved, they would not even be in the 'memorial tombs' of God.. at all. Like say, Judas or the like. It doesn't seem like there are any inbetween people at this judgement.. which is interesting. If the Lake of Fire is the permanent death like we've been taught, then anyone not found in the book of life goes into there. Hmm.. still a bit confused on this.. still waiting for the spirit to help out. Any ideas friends?
Do you not feel there will be a Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ?...I ask because it sounds a bit like you doubt these are events for the future..
absolutely
Also--do you believe and have faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ? If so--who did he ransom?
Absolutely.. He ransomed himself right? with his blood, to pay for our sins so we may have life.
Hey there Debbie:
You were saying:
You posted this, I believe, on page two:
"Jesus appears for his 2nd presence, over a period of time..etc.
I found your explanations very interesting. One, because I feel similiar in many ways. Two, is this perpective from a JW mind or is there something added from some place else? I'm asking because the quote intriques me.
Thanks for relating to what I said, Debbie. I feel quite alone sometimes in my beliefs.. I don't have anyone to really talk much to about these things. I would love to discuss it with you anytime. Ofcourse, the JW's gave me my start in understanding Revelation.. and the scriptures about the end..but I have gone way past that now. Yes, I got this scenerio from my observations in the world.. not from another writer, or anything. I think there is a 2- 3 1/2 presence of Christ. The 1st half, I think, is the Gr. Trib.. and the opening of the 7 seals by the Lamb.. and then the last 3 1/2 years, is when the Christ will be able to be recognized, by the bride class 1st and then at the end, by all the nations. Like, I said to Brendan, I believe he is present as a human, with a birth and all.. and during this time, he can be observed in his battles, by the whole world.. and he would be very divisive..in his judgements and infact, by peoples response, ones would either align themselves with him or against him. Like the first time.. Any thoughts?
I am happy to share bible speculation. (only within reasonable bible perameters). The only other "authority" would have to come from not of our world, but from the authority of the heavens. Otherwise, I am not much of a player to different thinking.
I do not believe that Jesus with do a new birth. There are no if and or buts about it making any biblical or spiritual sense to redo an earthly birth.
I do believe that we will be in more of a prophet mode, with the late hour chosen workers coming to the forefront. They will show tremendous faith and lead people under guidance of Jesus.
With Christian Love, Debbie
PS. I appreciate the outword expressions of faith.
Hi Apryl,
I see you have many comments to respond to and appreciate your answers to my inquiries. I worded one question really poorly tho regarding the ransom of Jesus Christ. I should have asked you who you feel the ransom of Jesus covers... :confused: that is more what I was asking..... :) ... :heartbeat:
:hibye:
Hello Debbie:
I am happy to share bible speculation. (only within reasonable bible perameters). The only other "authority" would have to come from not of our world, but from the authority of the heavens. Otherwise, I am not much of a player to different thinking.
I do not believe that Jesus with do a new birth. There are no if and or buts about it making any biblical or spiritual sense to redo an earthly birth.
I can assure you, I am only getting my ideas on the bible and my observations of world events.. (Keep on the watch, is a bible quote, right?) I think, that believing that Jesus will do a new human birth is very scriptural.. In fact, it's impossible to be any other way, in my eyes. But that's okay.. that you admanently are against the idea.. I'm used to it. :D
Hi Wolfie:
You said:
I should have asked you who you feel the ransom of Jesus covers...
Any of mankind, who wants to put faith in it.. right?
Hi ‘Spiritual Apryl’,
I’m trying to remember back to how we viewed God’ spirit as JWs. I’m pretty sure it was as an inanimate force. We definitely viewed our own borrowed portion of the spirit as that, like electricity. But the things given through holy spirit were not just the ability to perform acts of power like Samson. There was teaching, virtues and more.
Brian used to describe holy spirit as ‘Jehovah by remote’ meaning, I think, that the nature of God is transferred through that force, and not just His power. If we can accept that (and it might make us a little more tolerant toward Trinitarian views), then we could extend that thinking to the idea that our spirit also carries our essence in it.
On resurrection and judgment, could it be that we die a seed and wait to be replanted, but something must be there to be cultivated? We’ve heard that ‘you reap what you sow’. Could it possibly be that we actually determine what kind of seed is sown by our life’s actions, and God replants what is sown. In other words, we not only sow seeds, but we actually are seeds, and the same rule applies? This could equate Gehenna with producing no seed worth reproducing. Nonetheless, no actual judgement on this seed would be made until the time of the resurrection or the final judgement. Is this something like what you are saying?
To this day, I wonder what is meant by being taught by spirit. I must be very cynical after my years as a JW and listening to all the other guys on TBS who think they have the hot line to God. If you are more positive in this regard, just ignore me. I think, for the time being, we must dig deep as we are doing now to find our little gems. When spirit helps out, I think it is so quiet as to be almost imperceptible. Perhaps I’m being too subjective; not everyone’s experience is the same as mine. But when ‘true knowledge becomes abundant’, I think it will knock us out of our standing! I must admit, though, that I thoroughly enjoy trying to figure things out.
It was nice of you to call this my subject but I think we moved on quite a bit! I’m not complaining because I’ve enjoyed the ride and it’s not unusual for topics to develop in unexpected ways. Nonetheless, you are probably right about not getting into this subject of Jesus’ return now. We’ve covered a lot of ground, and we’re probably doing well to have stayed out of the Controversy Room as long as we have.
I will continue ASAP.
Regards,
Brendan.
Dear NewTruth,
Would you mind sharing, simply (the more simple, the easier for me to understand) why you would think that another baby birth would be scriptural?
Is it the baby boy that is taken up to the heavens while the women is protected in the wilderness? If yes, is there any other scriptures that shed light in that direction?
Of course, I'm not inclining that I'll change my stance (I am rather hard-headed), but I have learned a thing or two about being hard headed. If I at least listen and look at your point of view, I'll be a stronger and better person for it. You can PM me, start another thread, or point me to a thread where you or someone else may have already have expressed these thoughts. I appreciate your help.
Dear Brendan,
So sweet to mention the controversy room. I didn't realize one existed or what it was for (I've had little time and this thread has been about all my computer time.) I can promise that I do not willfully intend a controversy. Sometimes, strong faith is like a strong sheild and I wield mine rather quickly. Rather, I would just like the difference to be explained. I think only Jews think of a baby birth or do Born Again Christians? This would interest me, because it would explain a family fued that I experienced as a child. My mom is one of 18 children. Half of them were Jehovahs Witnesses and half, Born Agains. I honestly do not know anything about BA (I was sheilded very well). If its another teaching from another faith that may even be hybrid, can someone share the root faith?
Thank you all for your time and attention.
With Christian Love, Debbie
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10